[Bonetools] mesolithic artefact

Wed Apr 16 14:51:56 CEST 2014

Hi. Bone is not the issue for kashrut of fish. What is important is that fish have scales and gills.
Hope this helps.
Haskel

Haskel Greenfield
Sent from my iPad

On Apr 16, 2014, at 4:28 AM, "François Poplin" <poplin at mnhn.fr<mailto:poplin at mnhn.fr>> wrote:

May I take opportunity for another question about sturgeons ?

First, there is no bone in them, but cartilage (they are chondrous as sharks and rays). The outer skeleton is made of ganoine (excuse my lack of some adequate terms), wich is more or less as cementum - not very hard and strong, indeed.

As the scutes are not joining together, there are lacks in the "scale" cover, so as sturgeons are not pure fishes, rather outlaws for Levitic and Deutoronomy. Some carps have the seem feature, with some very large scales  and "skin" inbetweeen ; called "carpe miroir", "carpe cuir" in french (which terms in english ?). That should be in the way/embarrassing for "Gefieltefisch". Could somebobudy tell what is the position of theese carps compared with theese laws ?

(In osteaoarcheolopgy, remains of sturgeons are these ganoine covering pieces.... and otoliths (but I a not sure that theese are that devlopped).

Le 15/04/2014 16:08, S O'Connor a écrit :
Dear Marina and David,

Just a few more thoughts. I would be very cautious about ascribing a use to these fish bones.  They look very rounded and ‘worn’ even in-situ in the fin where they clearly have not been used as a tool or modified by human agency.

I am also dubious about them being used in the consumption of shell fish having prepared and consumed quantities of both oysters and mussels in my time!  You need a stout knife or a sharp and robust stone blade for the oyster and an empty mussel shell makes a perfect pair of ‘tweezers’ with which to eat the delicate cooked flesh of other mussels.  The sturgeon fin bone would not be useful for either role and is even too blunt for extracting the cooked flesh from marine gastropods such as cockles and winkles.

Most likely the pile of bones found in Hamburg is just residue from fileting sturgeon.   The skin is likely to have been removed as a piece with the characteristic boney scutes  for processing into leather.  Cutting off the fins at the fish market would make it easier to stack, roll or fold the skin for transportation from the fish market to the tanners. If the heads were left on the skins the fin bones would be one of the few persistent skeletal elements left behind as the sturgeon has a largely cartilaginous skeleton.

All the best,

Sonia
Dr Sonia O'Connor PhD FSA FIIC ACR Honorary Visiting Fellow, University of York
Post-doctoral Research Fellow
Archaeological Sciences
Division of AGES,
University of Bradford
Bradford, West Yorkshire, BD7 1DP, UK

tel 01274 23 6498 (office) 5210 (lab)
fax 01274 23 5210

From: Bonetools [mailto:bonetools-bounces at listserv.niif.hu] On Behalf Of marinaevora at sapo.pt<mailto:marinaevora at sapo.pt>
Sent: 15 April 2014 14:11
To: Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the study of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn.
Subject: Re: [Bonetools] mesolithic artefact

Thank you David and Sonia for your comments, no wonder I couldn't find parallels, I was not looking in the right place.

David, could you point me to the complete reference of the page and images you provided?

Best,
Marina

Quoting S O'Connor <S.Oconnor at bradford.ac.uk<mailto:S.Oconnor at bradford.ac.uk>>:
That looks a pretty close match, for the sturgeon dorsal fin elements

See

http://web.pdx.edu/~virginia/white_sturgeon/images/caudal_fin_dorsal.htm<http://web.pdx.edu/%7Evirginia/white_sturgeon/images/caudal_fin_dorsal.htm>
part of
http://web.pdx.edu/~virginia/white_sturgeon/white_sturgeon.htm<http://web.pdx.edu/%7Evirginia/white_sturgeon/white_sturgeon.htm>

Sonia

Dr Sonia O'Connor PhD FSA FIIC ACR Honorary Visiting Fellow, University of York
Post-doctoral Research Fellow
Archaeological Sciences
Division of AGES,
University of Bradford
Bradford, West Yorkshire, BD7 1DP, UK

tel 01274 23 6498 (office) 5210 (lab)
fax 01274 23 5210

From: Bonetools [mailto:bonetools-bounces at listserv.niif.hu] On Behalf Of Dave Constantine
Sent: 15 April 2014 11:28
To: Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the study of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn.
Subject: Re: [Bonetools] mesolithic artefact

Dear Marina,

Is it possibly a fish bone? Attached are a couple of pages discussing the possible use of Sturgeon bones for eating shellfish and the bones look rather like yours.

Regards,
David Constantine

From: marinaevora at sapo.pt<mailto:marinaevora at sapo.pt>
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 11:03 AM
To: Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the study of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn.<mailto:bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>
Subject: [Bonetools] mesolithic artefact

Dear all,

I'm sending you two pictures of an artefact recovered from a mesolithic shellmidden site in Portugal. I believe it is made from mammal bone. Do you have/ know of similar objects? I have been searching for parallels and I didn't find it.
Thank you.

Best,

Marina Évora

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Marina Évora

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