[Bonetools] mesolithic artefact

Wed Apr 16 16:33:44 CEST 2014

Hence the rabbinical disagreement  (at least in 19th c Hungary) over
sturgeon.

Alice

On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 2:51 PM, Haskel Greenfield <
Haskel.Greenfield at umanitoba.ca> wrote:

>   Hi. Bone is not the issue for kashrut of fish. What is important is
> that fish have scales and gills.
> Hope this helps.
> Haskel
>
> Haskel Greenfield
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Apr 16, 2014, at 4:28 AM, "François Poplin" <poplin at mnhn.fr> wrote:
>
>   May I take opportunity for another question about sturgeons ?
>
> First, there is no bone in them, but cartilage (they are chondrous as
> sharks and rays). The outer skeleton is made of ganoine (excuse my lack of
> some adequate terms), wich is more or less as cementum - not very hard and
> strong, indeed.
>
> As the scutes are not joining together, there are lacks in the "scale"
> cover, so as sturgeons are not pure fishes, rather outlaws for Levitic and
> Deutoronomy. Some carps have the seem feature, with some very large scales
> and "skin" inbetweeen ; called "carpe miroir", "carpe cuir" in french
> (which terms in english ?). That should be in the way/embarrassing for
> "Gefieltefisch". Could somebobudy tell what is the position of theese carps
> compared with theese laws ?
>
> (In osteaoarcheolopgy, remains of sturgeons are these ganoine covering
> pieces.... and otoliths (but I a not sure that theese are that devlopped).
>
>
>
> Le 15/04/2014 16:08, S O'Connor a écrit :
>
>  Dear Marina and David,
>
>
>
> Just a few more thoughts. I would be very cautious about ascribing a use
> to these fish bones.  They look very rounded and ‘worn’ even in-situ in the
> fin where they clearly have not been used as a tool or modified by human
> agency.
>
>
>
> I am also dubious about them being used in the consumption of shell fish
> having prepared and consumed quantities of both oysters and mussels in my
> time!  You need a stout knife or a sharp and robust stone blade for the
> oyster and an empty mussel shell makes a perfect pair of ‘tweezers’ with
> which to eat the delicate cooked flesh of other mussels.  The sturgeon fin
> bone would not be useful for either role and is even too blunt for
> extracting the cooked flesh from marine gastropods such as cockles and
> winkles.
>
>
>
> Most likely the pile of bones found in Hamburg is just residue from
> fileting sturgeon.   The skin is likely to have been removed as a piece
> with the characteristic boney scutes  for processing into leather.  Cutting
> off the fins at the fish market would make it easier to stack, roll or fold
> the skin for transportation from the fish market to the tanners. If the
> heads were left on the skins the fin bones would be one of the few
> persistent skeletal elements left behind as the sturgeon has a largely
> cartilaginous skeleton.
>
>
>
> All the best,
>
>
>
> Sonia
>
> Dr Sonia O'Connor PhD FSA FIIC ACR Honorary Visiting Fellow, University
> of York
>
> Post-doctoral Research Fellow
>
> Archaeological Sciences
>
> Division of AGES,
>
> University of Bradford
>
> Bradford, West Yorkshire, BD7 1DP, UK
>
>
>
> tel 01274 23 6498 (office) 5210 (lab)
>
> fax 01274 23 5210
>
>
>
> *From:* Bonetools [mailto:bonetools-bounces at listserv.niif.hu<bonetools-bounces at listserv.niif.hu>]
> *On Behalf Of *marinaevora at sapo.pt
> *Sent:* 15 April 2014 14:11
> *To:* Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the study
> of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn.
> *Subject:* Re: [Bonetools] mesolithic artefact
>
>
>
>
> Thank you David and Sonia for your comments, no wonder I couldn't find
> parallels, I was not looking in the right place.
>
> David, could you point me to the complete reference of the page and images
> you provided?
>
> Best,
> Marina
>
> Quoting S O'Connor <S.Oconnor at bradford.ac.uk>:
>
>  That looks a pretty close match, for the sturgeon dorsal fin elements
>
>
>
> See
>
>
>
> http://web.pdx.edu/~virginia/white_sturgeon/images/caudal_fin_dorsal.htm
>
> part of
>
> http://web.pdx.edu/~virginia/white_sturgeon/white_sturgeon.htm
>
>
>
> Sonia
>
>
>
> Dr Sonia O'Connor PhD FSA FIIC ACR Honorary Visiting Fellow, University
> of York
>
> Post-doctoral Research Fellow
>
> Archaeological Sciences
>
> Division of AGES,
>
> University of Bradford
>
> Bradford, West Yorkshire, BD7 1DP, UK
>
>
>
> tel 01274 23 6498 (office) 5210 (lab)
>
> fax 01274 23 5210
>
>
>
> *From:* Bonetools [mailto:bonetools-bounces at listserv.niif.hu<bonetools-bounces at listserv.niif.hu>]
> *On Behalf Of* Dave Constantine
> *Sent:* 15 April 2014 11:28
> *To:* Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the study
> of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn.
> *Subject:* Re: [Bonetools] mesolithic artefact
>
>
>
> Dear Marina,
>
>
>
> Is it possibly a fish bone? Attached are a couple of pages discussing the
> possible use of Sturgeon bones for eating shellfish and the bones look
> rather like yours.
>
> Regards,
>
> David Constantine
>
>
>
> *From:* marinaevora at sapo.pt
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 15, 2014 11:03 AM
>
> *To:* Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the study
> of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn.<bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>
>
> *Subject:* [Bonetools] mesolithic artefact
>
>
>
> Dear all,
>
> I'm sending you two pictures of an artefact recovered from a mesolithic
> shellmidden site in Portugal. I believe it is made from mammal bone. Do you
> have/ know of similar objects? I have been searching for parallels and I
> didn't find it.
> Thank you.
>
> Best,
>
>
> Marina Évora
>
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> Marina Évora
>
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> --
> François POPLIN
>
> Directeur honoraire de l’UMR 7209 Archéozoologie, Archébotanique : sociétés, pratiques et environnements
>
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>
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