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<div>Hi. Bone is not the issue for kashrut of fish. What is important is that fish have scales and gills.</div>
<div>Hope this helps.</div>
<div>Haskel <br>
<br>
Haskel Greenfield
<div>Sent from my iPad</div>
</div>
<div><br>
On Apr 16, 2014, at 4:28 AM, "François Poplin" <<a href="mailto:poplin@mnhn.fr">poplin@mnhn.fr</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">May I take opportunity for another question about sturgeons ?<br>
<br>
First, there is no bone in them, but cartilage (they are chondrous as sharks and rays). The outer skeleton is made of ganoine (excuse my lack of some adequate terms), wich is more or less as cementum - not very hard and strong, indeed.<br>
<br>
As the scutes are not joining together, there are lacks in the "scale" cover, so as sturgeons are not pure fishes, rather outlaws for Levitic and Deutoronomy. Some carps have the seem feature, with some very large scales and "skin" inbetweeen ; called "carpe
miroir", "carpe cuir" in french (which terms in english ?). That should be in the way/embarrassing for "Gefieltefisch". Could somebobudy tell what is the position of theese carps compared with theese laws ?
<br>
<br>
(In osteaoarcheolopgy, remains of sturgeons are these ganoine covering pieces.... and otoliths (but I a not sure that theese are that devlopped).
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Le 15/04/2014 16:08, S O'Connor a écrit :<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dear Marina and David,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Just a few more thoughts. I would be very cautious about ascribing a use to these fish bones. They look very rounded and ‘worn’ even in-situ in the fin where
they clearly have not been used as a tool or modified by human agency. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I am also dubious about them being used in the consumption of shell fish having prepared and consumed quantities of both oysters and mussels in my time! You
need a stout knife or a sharp and robust stone blade for the oyster and an empty mussel shell makes a perfect pair of ‘tweezers’ with which to eat the delicate cooked flesh of other mussels. The sturgeon fin bone would not be useful for either role and is
even too blunt for extracting the cooked flesh from marine gastropods such as cockles and winkles.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Most likely the pile of bones found in Hamburg is just residue from fileting sturgeon. The skin is likely to have been removed as a piece with the characteristic
boney scutes for processing into leather. Cutting off the fins at the fish market would make it easier to stack, roll or fold the skin for transportation from the fish market to the tanners. If the heads were left on the skins the fin bones would be one
of the few persistent skeletal elements left behind as the sturgeon has a largely cartilaginous skeleton.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">All the best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Sonia<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dr Sonia O'Connor
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">PhD FSA FIIC ACR Honorary Visiting Fellow, University of York</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Post-doctoral Research Fellow<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Archaeological Sciences<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Division of AGES,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">University of Bradford<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Bradford, West Yorkshire, BD7 1DP, UK<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">tel 01274 23 6498 (office) 5210 (lab)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">fax 01274 23 5210<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"" lang="EN-US"> Bonetools [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu">mailto:bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:marinaevora@sapo.pt">marinaevora@sapo.pt</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 15 April 2014 14:11<br>
<b>To:</b> Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the study of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn.<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bonetools] mesolithic artefact<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
Thank you David and Sonia for your comments, no wonder I couldn't find parallels, I was not looking in the right place.<br>
<br>
David, could you point me to the complete reference of the page and images you provided?<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Marina<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Quoting S O'Connor <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:S.Oconnor@bradford.ac.uk">S.Oconnor@bradford.ac.uk</a>>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">That looks a pretty close match, for the sturgeon dorsal fin elements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">See</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://web.pdx.edu/%7Evirginia/white_sturgeon/images/caudal_fin_dorsal.htm">http://web.pdx.edu/~virginia/white_sturgeon/images/caudal_fin_dorsal.htm</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">part of</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://web.pdx.edu/%7Evirginia/white_sturgeon/white_sturgeon.htm">http://web.pdx.edu/~virginia/white_sturgeon/white_sturgeon.htm</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Sonia</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dr Sonia O'Connor</span>
<span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">PhD FSA FIIC ACR Honorary Visiting Fellow, University of York</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Post-doctoral Research Fellow</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Archaeological Sciences</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Division of AGES, </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">University of Bradford</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Bradford, West Yorkshire, BD7 1DP, UK</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">tel 01274 23 6498 (office) 5210 (lab)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">fax 01274 23 5210</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"" lang="EN-US">Bonetools [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu">mailto:bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of</b> Dave Constantine<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 15 April 2014 11:28<br>
<b>To:</b> Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the study of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn.<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bonetools] mesolithic artefact</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Dear Marina,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Is it possibly a fish bone? Attached are a couple of pages discussing the possible use of Sturgeon bones
for eating shellfish and the bones look rather like yours.<br>
<br>
Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">David Constantine</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:whitesmoke">
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:marinaevora@sapo.pt" title="marinaevora@sapo.pt">marinaevora@sapo.pt</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:whitesmoke">
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Sent:</span></b>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Tuesday, April 15, 2014 11:03 AM</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">To:</span></b>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bonetools@listserv.niif.hu" title="bonetools@listserv.niif.hu">Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the study of object
and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn.</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Subject:</span></b>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">[Bonetools] mesolithic artefact</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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</div>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Dear all,<br>
<br>
I'm sending you two pictures of an artefact recovered from a mesolithic shellmidden site in Portugal. I believe it is made from mammal bone. Do you have/ know of similar objects? I have been searching for parallels and I didn't find it.<br>
Thank you.<br>
<br>
Best,</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><br>
<span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Marina Évora</span><br>
<br>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Bonetools mailing list
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
François POPLIN
Directeur honoraire de l’UMR 7209 Archéozoologie, Archébotanique : sociétés, pratiques et environnements
Responsable du Séminaire d'Anthropozoologie
Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle
CP 56
Ancien Laboratoire d’Anatomie comparée
55, rue de Buffon
75005 Paris
01 40 79 33 11
fax ------ 33 14
<a href="http://francoispoplin.blogspot.com">francoispoplin.blogspot.com</a>
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