[Bonetools] Fwd: Re: FW: Re: FW: Bone object - textile manufacture?

Wed Mar 20 09:37:16 CET 2013

Dear François,
    Every time I look at Roman bone tools here at Aquincum and I cannot see
clearly what the raw material is  because of heavy working or surface
damage I see crocodiles floating before my eyes. You are not the only one
stimulated by the idea of use of non-mammalian bone for
manufacturing/symbolic purposes!

Alice

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:55 AM, François Poplin <poplin at mnhn.fr> wrote:

>  Dear all,****
>
> ** **
>
> I could go in the coptic section of the Louvre not earlier than
> yersterday. There are two similar pieces, one complete with 7 holes, the
> other broken with 6. I have not seen them yet, just pictures. They are very
> tiny (the complete : 4,5 x 0,8 x 0,3 cm), and there is few place left
> between the holes and the long edges (less than the diameter of holes).
> Along the edges, the lateral side is clearly vertical and distinct from the
> pierced/drilled faces. I am tring to provide you a picture.****
>
> ** **
>
> I my previous message, I spoke of non-mammal bone. I was stimulated by the
> enlarged images we got. I wanted to open that perspective for this :
> "haversian or not haversian ? that is the question" ; the next step in
> enlargment being DNA research.****
>
> ** **
>
> I wanted to bring your attention on "a piece, two objects" too. For this,
> I am preparing a comment on a fine piece brought to us by Idola
> Grau-Sologestoa with her e-mail from January the 28th. (fig. 4 of her pdf).
>
>
>
> Your's
>
>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
>
> -------- Message original --------  Sujet: Re: [Bonetools] FW: Re: FW:
> Bone object - textile manufacture?  Date : Sun, 10 Mar 2013 17:24:28 +0100  De :
> François Poplin <poplin at mnhn.fr> <poplin at mnhn.fr>  Pour :
> bonetools at listserv.niif.hu
>
>
> Dear S. O'Connor, dear Erik Farrell,
>
> first : I forgot to tell that the break passing through three holes looks
> fresh/recent.
>
> This break shows a what I would name "plexiform" bone, and that could open
> on Reptiles ; external/surface aspect lets me remember of certain aspects
> of marine tortoises - and I determined years and years ago a predynastic
> figurine as mde of crocodile bone - but so many years ago that I don't
> remember that well. It woulf be necessary for me to go back to the
> comparative material.
> AND - please don't laugh - certain of these aspect are remembering of...
> human femur, for instance (I am thinking here of tibetan things).
>
> For young people : a photograph, even a good one, is less rhan a quarter
> of what it is supposed to show in the mind of who shows it.
>
> I am going to see sickles in the coptic section of the Egyptian Deparment
> of the Louvre Museum wednesday. I'll look fpr such bones, if any.
>
>
> On the new series of views, the hole at the opposite (that one which is
> enlarged) shows a fine fluff.. = ? I prefer not to start the list of what
> I'd think it could be. First, to bring attention, before to give
> opinion/solution, etc.
>
> Dont forget that piece is two objects.
>
> Your's
>
> Le 08/03/2013 18:12, S O'Connor a écrit :
>
> Further information from Erik
>
> Dr Sonia O'Connor PhD FSA FIIC ACR Honorary Visiting Fellow, University of
> York
> Post-doctoral Research Fellow
> Archaeological Sciences
> Division of AGES,
> University of Bradford
> Bradford, West Yorkshire, BD7 1DP, UK
>
> tel 01274 23 6498 (office) 5210 (lab)
> fax 01274 23 5210
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: FARRELL E.R. [mailto:e.r.farrell at durham.ac.uk <e.r.farrell at durham.ac.uk>]
> Sent: 07 March 2013 22:04
> To: S.Oconnor at bradford.ac.uk
> Subject: FW: Re: [Bonetools] FW: Bone object - textile manufacture?
>
> Dr. O'Connor,
>
> I'm going to try to address as much as I can in this, so it may be rather
> long. If you would prefer I start sending through the listserv directly,
> please let me know (if that's even possible). I hate to keep taking up your
> time forwarding emails around, but I do really appreciate it.
>
> With regard to information in the records I viewed today: there is still no
> context, and the date range has widened significantly. The current museum
> record had reference to a number corresponding to a 1957 acquisition with,
> for the most part, the date range I previously sent. Unfortunately that
> number is actually an auction lot number from the 1922 MacGregor auction,
> and the original accession is under a different reference. I have found that
> number, but the entire entry is 'ivory fragment, 6cm'. It's through a 1971
> acquisition from the Wellcome collection with completely unknown origin. It
> is listed as Egyptian, but the date range could be anything from Predynastic
> through to Islamic. There is no record of an excavation or any associated
> artefacts.
>
> I am going to try to track down the auction reference in the hopes it has at
> least some kind of contextual information. Fortunately Durham has a copy of
> the catalog which I can grab first thing tomorrow morning.
>
> I have also attached photos of the wear at greater magnification, as well as
> additional photos.
>
> I have some awareness of how thoroughly terrible a question this is to ask,
> but can anyone identify the type of bone from photos? I've had one person
> look at it and identify it as definitely bone rather than ivory, but
> indeterminate bone morphology and species. The museum record's
> identification as ivory has me in search of a third opinion. I can tell it's
> not elephantine ivory with some level of confidence, but unfortunately I
> wouldn't recognize hippo ivory if the hippo walked up and bit me personally.
>
>
> Attempting to address anything I have not previously:
>
> Dr. Ayalon,
>
> I should be able to take a look at your book on the Caesarea Maritima finds
> tomorrow as well which may clear up some of my questions. I am wondering
> with respect to the weaving tablet, are there examples with a linear row of
> holes? Most of the examples I can find seem to be square with the four
> corners pierced. I have found a couple irregularly shaped examples with more
> than 4 holes, but all seem to have a substantial center section with no
> holes.
>
>
>
> Dr. Ayalon and Dr. Riddler,
>
> The suggestion of a belt divider is very interesting. I will see what I can
> track down on belts worn in Egypt; hopefully I can find some similar
> example. Would either of you be willing to suggest how you think it might
> have been attached? I presume the strap of the belt would be attached at the
> worn hole, but how do you think the broken end might have functioned? If
> there was a ring through the final hole putting pressure on that might
> explain the nature of the break, but I am unsure what purpose the other
> holes might serve then. They could be ornamental, but they weaken the
> structure quite significantly for something functional like a strap.
>
>
> Dr. Poplin,
>
> Unfortunately there is no context or associated artefacts, as this object
> has come down through several different owners and originates in a late 19th
> century collection.
>
>
>
> Dr. Santander Pizarro,
>
> I realized the prior photos were not at the magnification you had asked for.
> I have taken new photos at 40x and attached them to this email. They are
> taken through a binocular microscope, so unfortunately the depth of field is
> not as good as it could be.
>
>
>
> Many thanks to everyone for their time and suggestions,
>
> Regards,
> Erik Farrell
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: SA O'Connor [S.Oconnor at bradford.ac.uk]
> Sent: 07 March 2013 10:30
> To: FARRELL E.R.
> Subject: Fwd: Re: [Bonetools] FW: Bone object - textile manufacture?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
>
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>
>
> --
> François POPLIN
>
> Directeur honoraire de l’UMR 7209 Archéozoologie, Archébotanique : sociétés, pratiques et environnements
>
> Responsable du Séminaire d'Anthropozoologie
>
> Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle
> CP 56
> Ancien Laboratoire d’Anatomie comparée
> 55, rue de Buffon
> 75005 Paris
> 01 40 79 33 11
> fax ------ 33 14
> francoispoplin.blogspot.com
>
>
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