<div>Dear François,</div><div> Every time I look at Roman bone tools here at Aquincum and I cannot see clearly what the raw material is because of heavy working or surface damage I see crocodiles floating before my eyes. You are not the only one stimulated by the idea of use of non-mammalian bone for manufacturing/symbolic purposes!</div>
<div> </div><div>Alice<br><br></div><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:55 AM, François Poplin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:poplin@mnhn.fr" target="_blank">poplin@mnhn.fr</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class="gmail_quote">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph" class="MsoNormal"><span style="letter-spacing:-0.15pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:14pt">Dear
all,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph" class="MsoNormal"><span style="letter-spacing:-0.15pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:14pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph" class="MsoNormal"><span style="letter-spacing:-0.15pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:14pt">I
could go in the coptic
section of the Louvre not earlier than yersterday. There are two
similar
pieces, one complete with 7 holes, the other broken with 6. I
have not seen them
yet, just pictures. They are very tiny (the complete : 4,5 x 0,8
x 0,3 cm), and
there is few place left between the holes and the long edges
(less than the
diameter of holes). Along the edges, the lateral side is clearly
vertical and
distinct from the pierced/drilled faces. I am tring to provide
you a picture.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph" class="MsoNormal"><span style="letter-spacing:-0.15pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:14pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph" class="MsoNormal"><span style="letter-spacing:-0.15pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:14pt">I
my previous message, I
spoke of non-mammal bone. I was stimulated by the enlarged
images we got. I
wanted to open that perspective for this : "haversian or not
haversian ?
that is the question" ; the next step in enlargment being DNA
research.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph" class="MsoNormal"><span style="letter-spacing:-0.15pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:14pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p style="text-align:justify" class="MsoNormal"><span>I wanted to bring your
attention on "a piece, two objects" too. For this, I am
preparing a
comment on a fine piece brought to us by Idola Grau-Sologestoa
with
her e-mail from January the 28th. (fig. 4 of her pdf).<br>
</span></p>
<p style="text-align:justify" class="MsoNormal"><span><br>
</span></p>
<p style="text-align:justify" class="MsoNormal"><span><br>
Your's<br>
</span></p>
<p style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph" class="MsoNormal"><br>
<span style="letter-spacing:-0.15pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:14pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph" class="MsoNormal"><span style="letter-spacing:-0.15pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:14pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<br>
<br>
-------- Message original --------
<table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap align="RIGHT">Sujet: </th>
<td>Re: [Bonetools] FW: Re: FW: Bone object - textile
manufacture?</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap align="RIGHT">Date : </th>
<td>Sun, 10 Mar 2013 17:24:28 +0100</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap align="RIGHT">De : </th>
<td>François Poplin <a href="mailto:poplin@mnhn.fr" target="_blank"><poplin@mnhn.fr></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap align="RIGHT">Pour : </th>
<td><a href="mailto:bonetools@listserv.niif.hu" target="_blank">bonetools@listserv.niif.hu</a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table><div><div class="h5">
<br>
<br>
Dear S. O'Connor, dear Erik Farrell,<br>
<br>
first : I forgot to tell that the break passing through three holes
looks fresh/recent.<br>
<br>
This break shows a what I would name "plexiform" bone, and that
could open on Reptiles ; external/surface aspect lets me remember of
certain aspects of marine tortoises - and I determined years and
years ago a predynastic figurine as mde of crocodile bone - but so
many years ago that I don't remember that well. It woulf be
necessary for me to go back to the comparative material.<br>
AND - please don't laugh - certain of these aspect are remembering
of... human femur, for instance (I am thinking here of tibetan
things).<br>
<br>
For young people : a photograph, even a good one, is less rhan a
quarter of what it is supposed to show in the mind of who shows it.<br>
<br>
I am going to see sickles in the coptic section of the Egyptian
Deparment of the Louvre Museum wednesday. I'll look fpr such bones,
if any. <br>
<br>
<br>
On the new series of views, the hole at the opposite (that one which
is enlarged) shows a fine fluff.. = ? I prefer not to start the list
of what I'd think it could be. First, to bring attention, before to
give opinion/solution, etc.<br>
<br>
Dont forget that piece is two objects.<br>
<br>
Your's<br>
<br>
Le 08/03/2013 18:12, S O'Connor a écrit :
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Further information from Erik
Dr Sonia O'Connor PhD FSA FIIC ACR Honorary Visiting Fellow, University of
York
Post-doctoral Research Fellow
Archaeological Sciences
Division of AGES,
University of Bradford
Bradford, West Yorkshire, BD7 1DP, UK
tel 01274 23 6498 (office) 5210 (lab)
fax 01274 23 5210
-----Original Message-----
From: FARRELL E.R. [<a href="mailto:e.r.farrell@durham.ac.uk" target="_blank">mailto:e.r.farrell@durham.ac.uk</a>]
Sent: 07 March 2013 22:04
To: <a href="mailto:S.Oconnor@bradford.ac.uk" target="_blank">S.Oconnor@bradford.ac.uk</a>
Subject: FW: Re: [Bonetools] FW: Bone object - textile manufacture?
Dr. O'Connor,
I'm going to try to address as much as I can in this, so it may be rather
long. If you would prefer I start sending through the listserv directly,
please let me know (if that's even possible). I hate to keep taking up your
time forwarding emails around, but I do really appreciate it.
With regard to information in the records I viewed today: there is still no
context, and the date range has widened significantly. The current museum
record had reference to a number corresponding to a 1957 acquisition with,
for the most part, the date range I previously sent. Unfortunately that
number is actually an auction lot number from the 1922 MacGregor auction,
and the original accession is under a different reference. I have found that
number, but the entire entry is 'ivory fragment, 6cm'. It's through a 1971
acquisition from the Wellcome collection with completely unknown origin. It
is listed as Egyptian, but the date range could be anything from Predynastic
through to Islamic. There is no record of an excavation or any associated
artefacts.
I am going to try to track down the auction reference in the hopes it has at
least some kind of contextual information. Fortunately Durham has a copy of
the catalog which I can grab first thing tomorrow morning.
I have also attached photos of the wear at greater magnification, as well as
additional photos.
I have some awareness of how thoroughly terrible a question this is to ask,
but can anyone identify the type of bone from photos? I've had one person
look at it and identify it as definitely bone rather than ivory, but
indeterminate bone morphology and species. The museum record's
identification as ivory has me in search of a third opinion. I can tell it's
not elephantine ivory with some level of confidence, but unfortunately I
wouldn't recognize hippo ivory if the hippo walked up and bit me personally.
Attempting to address anything I have not previously:
Dr. Ayalon,
I should be able to take a look at your book on the Caesarea Maritima finds
tomorrow as well which may clear up some of my questions. I am wondering
with respect to the weaving tablet, are there examples with a linear row of
holes? Most of the examples I can find seem to be square with the four
corners pierced. I have found a couple irregularly shaped examples with more
than 4 holes, but all seem to have a substantial center section with no
holes.
Dr. Ayalon and Dr. Riddler,
The suggestion of a belt divider is very interesting. I will see what I can
track down on belts worn in Egypt; hopefully I can find some similar
example. Would either of you be willing to suggest how you think it might
have been attached? I presume the strap of the belt would be attached at the
worn hole, but how do you think the broken end might have functioned? If
there was a ring through the final hole putting pressure on that might
explain the nature of the break, but I am unsure what purpose the other
holes might serve then. They could be ornamental, but they weaken the
structure quite significantly for something functional like a strap.
Dr. Poplin,
Unfortunately there is no context or associated artefacts, as this object
has come down through several different owners and originates in a late 19th
century collection.
Dr. Santander Pizarro,
I realized the prior photos were not at the magnification you had asked for.
I have taken new photos at 40x and attached them to this email. They are
taken through a binocular microscope, so unfortunately the depth of field is
not as good as it could be.
Many thanks to everyone for their time and suggestions,
Regards,
Erik Farrell
________________________________________
From: SA O'Connor [<a href="mailto:S.Oconnor@bradford.ac.uk" target="_blank">S.Oconnor@bradford.ac.uk</a>]
Sent: 07 March 2013 10:30
To: FARRELL E.R.
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Bonetools] FW: Bone object - textile manufacture?
----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
</pre>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
Bonetools mailing list
<a href="mailto:Bonetools@listserv.niif.hu" target="_blank">Bonetools@listserv.niif.hu</a>
<a href="https://listserv.niif.hu/mailman/listinfo/bonetools" target="_blank">https://listserv.niif.hu/mailman/listinfo/bonetools</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<pre cols="72">--
François POPLIN
Directeur honoraire de l’UMR 7209 Archéozoologie, Archébotanique : sociétés, pratiques et environnements
Responsable du Séminaire d'Anthropozoologie
Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle
CP 56
Ancien Laboratoire d’Anatomie comparée
55, rue de Buffon
75005 Paris
01 40 79 33 11
fax ------ 33 14
<a href="http://francoispoplin.blogspot.com" target="_blank">francoispoplin.blogspot.com</a>
</pre>
</div></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Bonetools mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Bonetools@listserv.niif.hu">Bonetools@listserv.niif.hu</a><br>
<a href="https://listserv.niif.hu/mailman/listinfo/bonetools" target="_blank">https://listserv.niif.hu/mailman/listinfo/bonetools</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>