[Bonetools] Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : protohistoric object

Tue Aug 2 00:11:22 CEST 2011

Hello everyone,

I think Benjamin should organize a round table dedicated to the use of
astragals in prehistoric Europe, as it seems they occur everywhere with
endless variety in modes of use.

Here is my contribution to the topic, astragals from two sites in Serbia.
Those labeled *dvs* are from Divostin, central Serbia, Vinča culture (Late
Neolithic / Early Aeneolithic) and those labeled *bb* are from Bubanj,
eastern Serbia, Bubanj culture (Aeneolithic).
My hypothesis is that both types were used on soft, organic materials, as
polish is very intense. I would expect more regular, deeper lines and
incisions if they have been used on pottery. Oh, yes, those from Divostin
are sheep astragals, and from Bubanj one is from red deer, the other from
pig.

Otherwise, Benjamin, I am really looking forward to see results of your
experiments, hope they will be sucessful.

best regards, selena

On 27 July 2011 12:11, MARQUEBIELLE Benjamin <benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
> wrote:

> Cher monsieur Poplin.
> Je n'ai pas le détail du travail du bronze sur le site, mais s'il est une
> activité artisanale bien représentée, c'est bien la métallurgie. Voila
> pourquoi nous tenons tant à expérimenter le travail de ce matériau. Nous
> serions bien sur très intéressé par vos écrits ! J'ai transmis votre mail à
> Mlle Nadia Cavanhié, archéozoologue en charge de l'étude de ce matériel, qui
> saura mieux que moi répondre à vos questions.
> Bien à vous
>
> Dear M. Poplin
> I have no precise idea about the bronze working on the site, but metal
> industry is a very frequent crafting activity. That's why we're wanting so
> much experiment the work of this material with phalanges. We are so very
> interested about your papers!
> I passed on your e-mail to Miss Nadia Cavanhié, zooarchaeologist who
> studying this material. She will know better that I to answer your
> questions.
>
> Best regards
>
> Marquebielle Benjamin
> PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
> 5, rue du pont Guilheméry
> 31000 Toulouse
> tel : 06 71 33 61 52
> e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *De :* François Poplin <poplin at mnhn.fr>
> *À :* "Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the study
> of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn." <
> bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>
> *Envoyé le :* Mer 27 juillet 2011, 11h 04min 52s
> *Objet :* Re: [Bonetools] Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : protohistoric object
>
> Cher Monsieur,
>
> je vois que cela commence à parler de métal. Je voulais justement vous
> demander ce que vous avez comme objets de bronze ; avez-vous des bandeaux
> fins, par exemple ? des lames ? Et avez-vous des signes manifestes du
> travail du bronze (scories, etc.) ?
>
> D'autre part combien avez-vous de ces phalanges ? et des deux sortes,
> c'est-à-dire combien de la "gauche" et combien de la "droite" du plan de
> symétrie du pied ? et en avez-vous trouvé à l'état groupé ?
>
> J'ai écrit sur le fourbissages des métaux - je peux vous envoyer cela par
> la poste ; à quelle adresse ?
>
> Bien à vous.
>
>
>
> Le 27/07/2011 10:46, MARQUEBIELLE Benjamin a écrit :
>
> Thank you Jackie, very interesting experiments ! I'll send you the results
> of our metal experiment. I agree with you about the hight possibilities of
> using these kind of pieces like tool and not only like gaming pieces !
> About the Ethan hypothesis (smoothing and burnishing plaster on walls),
> why not, but the phalanges are small (some come from young animals) and some
> of them present a very small active part... Maybe a very precise work ? And
> about grinding small amounts of delicate materials like spices, pigments or
> medicines, there isn't a lot of indications in favour of these hypothesis.
> There's no traces (micro or macroscopic) of pigments (and the conservation
> of some objetcs is quite good) and all the objects present same oblique
> striations, all in the same direction.
>
> Thanks for all these ideas and hypothesis !
>
> Marquebielle Benjamin
> PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
> 5, rue du pont Guilheméry
> 31000 Toulouse
> tel : 06 71 33 61 52
> e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> *De :* Etan Ayalon <etana at eretzmuseum.org.il> <etana at eretzmuseum.org.il>
> *À :* "Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for thestudy
> of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn."
> <bonetools at listserv.niif.hu> <bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>
> *Envoyé le :* Dim 24 juillet 2011, 8h 06min 43s
> *Objet :* Re: [Bonetools] Re : Re : Re : Re : protohistoric object
>
> Dear all,
> Another possibility of using straight sided phalanges on wet material
> without bothering on the problem of the rounded shape of pottery vessels:
> smoothing and burnishing plaster on walls! This was done on walls of
> dwelling houses as well as of installations (i.e., connected with liquids),
> on lime-white plaster as well as on muddy-brown plaster, etc. We are all
> aware of the beautiful photos from Africa showing women coating their houses
> with mud and colors and burnishing them.
>
> And how about grinding small amounts of delicate materials like spices,
> pigments, medicines etc.?
> Etan Ayalon
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* bonetools-bounces at listserv.niif.hu [
> mailto:bonetools-bounces at listserv.niif.hu<bonetools-bounces at listserv.niif.hu>]
> *On Behalf Of *MARQUEBIELLE Benjamin
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 23, 2011 3:03 PM
> *To:* Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the study
> ofobject and waste of bone,antler. ivory and horn.
> *Subject:* [Bonetools] Re : Re : Re : Re : protohistoric object
>
>  Hello Jackie, hello Alice
>
> Wonderful ! Thank you for the contact, Alice, and, yes, I would like some
> photos of phalanges from Szazhalombatta please, to compare with my objects.
> Jackie, this is very interesting and, please, I would like also a copy of
> your article and poster, of course.
> We tought these objects could be ceramic smoothers because of the oblique
> striations of the straight face, and the lack of characteristic traces of
> hide or leather working (or other smooth raw material), with very bright
> polish. The result of alternative smooth of inside and outside pots is
> interesting ! We thought also to experiment the work of metal with a smith
> and use these objects like smoothers or during quenching and tempering phase
> of blade production. I'll could share the results of this experiment, as Eva
> said in a previous message.
> Thank you for all these informations !
>
> All the best
>
> Marquebielle Benjamin
> PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
> 5, rue du pont Guilheméry
> 31000 Toulouse
> tel : 06 71 33 61 52
> e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> *De :* jacqueline meier <jacqueline.s.meier at gmail.com><jacqueline.s.meier at gmail.com>
> *À :* Alice Choyke <h13017cho at iif.hu> <h13017cho at iif.hu>
> *Cc :* "Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the
> study of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn."
> <bonetools at listserv.niif.hu> <bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>
> *Envoyé le :* Ven 22 juillet 2011, 21h 37min 40s
> *Objet :* Re: [Bonetools] Re : Re : Re : protohistoric object
>
> Hello,
>
>  Alice Choyke forwarded me this thread. At the last ICAZ meeting, I
> presented a poster on an experiment that investigated some astragali
> artifacts that I studied for my Master's thesis, thanks to Alice. I tried
> using astragali to work wet and dry clay and hide and compared the resulting
> macro and microwear to wear on flattened astragali artifacts from the
> Middle Bronze Age sites of Zagyvapálfalva-Homokbanya and Kisterenye-Hársas
> in Hungary. If my results would be of interest to anyone, please email me
> and I will send you a copy of the poster and my submitted article for the
> ICAZ volume.
>
>  In my study, the lack of contextual information was very limiting, but I
> made several interesting conclusions about the potential of using unmodified
> astragali as tools. First, it is very easy to use goat astragali to
> hand-burnish pottery and they are very effective burnishers. Second, the
> outermost ridges of the medial and lateral bone sides were ground down to a
> flat surface after 120 minutes of use. Lastly, microwear developed that was
> very similar to that which was present on the bone artifacts: oblique
> striations and some micropitting developed. I held the astragali as was
> indicated by the handling polish on the artifacts and made clay that was
> comparable to the formula and particle size as clay from the site, thus I am
> confident in concluding that these flattened astragali were *potentially*used for burnishing leather-hard ceramic. Again, context limits this
> conclusion, but the wear was assessed with backscatter imaging and looks
> very similar.
>
>  Several key points may be relevant to this thread. One is that astragali
> do not have to be pre-flattened to burnish ceramic. Any sharp or raised
> areas are quickly removed by the gritty clay. Second, I used astragali to
> smooth the inside and outside of round pots and the astragali were flattened
> straight. This was not intentionally done, in fact I did not notice it until
> compared the profiles of these astragali with those used to experimentally
> work hide.
>
>  Again, I will send this article and poster to anyone who requests a copy.
> I look forward to reading about similar experiments with astragali and
> phalanges.
>
>  All the best,
> Jackie Meier
> jacqueline.meier at uconn.edu
>
>
>
>
>
>  On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 9:40 PM, Alice Choyke <h13017cho at iif.hu> wrote:
>
>> If you wish I can also send you plentiful photos of phalanges from
>> Szazhalombatta as well. there are many of these objects from the MBA. You
>> should also contact Jacquie Meier (jacqueline.s.meier at gmail.com) who<jacqueline.s.meier at gmail.com%29+who>did some experiments with these objects.
>>
>> Best,
>> Alice
>>
>>  On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 10:35 AM, MARQUEBIELLE Benjamin <
>> benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr> wrote:
>>
>>>  Hello Selena, hello Alice
>>>
>>> Marianne Christensen send to me your article, Alice, about
>>> Jászdózsa–Kápolnahalom and there is photo with worked phalanges. We'll begin
>>> experiments in August, with potter and smith, maybe they'll bring some
>>> indications... One of the problem of my object is the context is unclear,
>>> most of them was found in wells full of rubbish.
>>> Thanks for the abstract reference, Selena, I'll contact the author !
>>>
>>> Best
>>>
>>>
>>> Marquebielle Benjamin
>>> PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
>>> 5, rue du pont Guilheméry
>>> 31000 Toulouse
>>> tel : 06 71 33 61 52
>>> e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>>>
>>>
>>>  ------------------------------
>>> *De :* Alice Choyke <h13017cho at iif.hu>
>>> *À :* "Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the
>>> study of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn." <
>>> bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>
>>> *Envoyé le :* Ven 22 juillet 2011, 10h 17min 18s
>>> *Objet :* Re: [Bonetools] Re : Re : protohistoric object
>>>
>>> Unless the clay surfaces being smoothed are straight such as the wall of
>>> an oven: I have been struggling with the exact same problem for astragalii
>>> and phalanges of all kinds, especially from the Middle Bronze Age of Hungary
>>> and am not much smarter than I began... Multiple hypotheses need to be tried
>>> out again and and again because sadly there will not be one right answer to
>>> this problem. It is definitely context driven.
>>>
>>>  Alice
>>>
>>> *De :* Selena Vitezovic <selenavitezovic at gmail.com>
>>> *À :* "Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the
>>> study of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn." <
>>> bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>
>>> *Envoyé le :* Sam 2 juillet 2011, 19h 10min 35s
>>>
>>> *Objet :* Re: [Bonetools] Re : protohistoric object
>>>
>>> Hello everyone,
>>> Hello, Benjamin,
>>>
>>> Perhaps a little bit out of time and place - but last year at ICAZ
>>> conference I saw a poster on astragals from Bronze age Hungary with similar
>>> usewear pattern, used probably for clay working.
>>> This is the link for the abstract, perhaps photos may be found or asked
>>> from author.
>>> http://alexandriaarchive.org/bonecommons/items/show/1383
>>>
>>> And I agree with Marloes, they must have been flattened before use. Some
>>> other used astragals, from Balkan Neolithic and Chalcolithic, seemed to have
>>> been flattened before use (probably with sandstone) - although they were
>>> most likely used on soft, organic materials, since they have intense polish.
>>>
>>>
>>> best, selena
>>>
>>>   On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 9:51 AM, MARQUEBIELLE Benjamin <
>>> ivrel001 at yahoo.fr> wrote:
>>>
>>>>  Hello Marloes, sorry for the delay, I traveled.
>>>> Good remark... Phalanges internal side are flat but not so flat. I agree
>>>> with you : the (possible) worked surface must be straight and a pottery
>>>> generaly isn't.
>>>>
>>>> Best
>>>> Benjamin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Marquebielle Benjamin
>>>> PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
>>>> 5, rue du pont Guilheméry
>>>> 31000 Toulouse
>>>> tel : 06 71 33 61 52
>>>> e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>> *De :* Marloes Rijkelijkhuizen <marloesrijkelijkhuizen at hotmail.com>
>>>>
>>>> *À :* bonetools at listserv.niif.hu
>>>>  *Envoyé le :* Ven 1 juillet 2011, 21h 02min 49s
>>>>
>>>> *Objet :* Re: [Bonetools] Re : protohistoric object
>>>>
>>>> Hi Benjamin
>>>>
>>>> I couldn't see if it was flattened (before use).
>>>>
>>>> If used, it should be used for/on something with a flat surface, the
>>>> surface is completely flat. (compare the medieval skates, these were used on
>>>> ice and have a flat surface, but were sometimes flattened before use). If
>>>> used for pottery the surface wouldn't be straight.
>>>>
>>>> Best, Marloes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 12:35:47 +0100
>>>> From: benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>>>> To: bonetools at listserv.niif.hu
>>>> Subject: [Bonetools] Re : protohistoric object
>>>>
>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>> I send photo of another object where you can see more precisely the
>>>> traces. Use wear area is the result of the use/exploitation of the flatest
>>>> face of the phalanx, maybe with a kind of abrasion technique... The
>>>> mophologic modification of the bone could be various but never very
>>>> important.
>>>>
>>>> Non, il ne s'agit pas de sciage.
>>>> Je joins une photo d'un autre objet sur laquelle on voit plus
>>>> précisément les stigmates. La zone d'usure est le résultat de l'utilisation
>>>> ou de l'exploitation de la face la plus plate de la phalange, peut être en
>>>> utilisant une technique d'abrasion... Ce degré d'usure peut varier mais il
>>>> n'est jamais très important.
>>>>
>>>> Marquebielle Benjamin
>>>> PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
>>>> 5, rue du pont Guilheméry
>>>> 31000 Toulouse
>>>> tel : 06 71 33 61 52
>>>> e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>> *De :* François Poplin <poplin at mnhn.fr>
>>>> *À :* bonetools at listserv.niif.hu
>>>> *Envoyé le :* Ven 1 juillet 2011, 12h 20min 16s
>>>> *Objet :* Re: [Bonetools] protohistoric object
>>>>
>>>> Est-il sûr qu'il ne s'agit pas d'un sciage ?
>>>>
>>>> Would not be sawing traces ?
>>>>
>>>> Le 01/07/2011 11:00, MARQUEBIELLE Benjamin a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> Hello !
>>>> Does anybody have an idea about the type or function of this object ?
>>>> It's an young pig phalanx, with use wear traces on the internal face,
>>>> covered by oblique striations. It comes from large protohistoric site(possible marketplace) of Toulouse, in the south of France (II-I° century
>>>> BC). About 20 objects was found, a majority made of pig phalanxes (young or
>>>> not) and only two made of bovid pahlanxes. Use wear is always located on the
>>>> same face, with different use degree and some objetcs are perforated on
>>>> the proximal face. We thought about a kind of smoother (in relation
>>>> with potery ? metal ?) but objects are realy small and found in various
>>>> contexts (more often in wells full of rubbish).
>>>> Thanks a lot and best regards
>>>>
>>>> Marquebielle Benjamin
>>>> PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
>>>> 5, rue du pont Guilheméry
>>>> 31000 Toulouse
>>>> tel : 06 71 33 61 52
>>>> e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Bonetools mailing listBonetools at listserv.niif.huhttps://listserv.niif.hu/mailman/listinfo/bonetools
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> François POPLIN
>>>>
>>>> Directeur honoraire de l’UMR 7209 Archéozoologie, Archébotanique : sociétés, pratiques et environnements
>>>>
>>>> Responsable du Séminaire d'Anthropozoologie
>>>>
>>>> Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle
>>>> CP 56
>>>> Ancien Laboratoire d’Anatomie comparée
>>>> 55, rue de Buffon
>>>> 75005 Paris
>>>> 01 40 79 33 11
>>>> fax ------ 33 14
>>>> francoispoplin.blogspot.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ Bonetools mailing list
>>>> Bonetools at listserv.niif.hu
>>>> https://listserv.niif.hu/mailman/listinfo/bonetools
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Bonetools mailing list
>>>> Bonetools at listserv.niif.hu
>>>> https://listserv.niif.hu/mailman/listinfo/bonetools
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bonetools mailing list
>>> Bonetools at listserv.niif.hu
>>> https://listserv.niif.hu/mailman/listinfo/bonetools
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Jacqueline S. Meier, MSc
> Department of Anthropology
> Unit 2176, 354 Mansfield Road
> University of Connecticut
> Storrs, CT   06269
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bonetools mailing listBonetools at listserv.niif.huhttps://listserv.niif.hu/mailman/listinfo/bonetools
>
>
>
> --
> François POPLIN
>
> Directeur honoraire de l’UMR 7209 Archéozoologie, Archébotanique : sociétés, pratiques et environnements
>
> Responsable du Séminaire d'Anthropozoologie
>
> Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle
> CP 56
> Ancien Laboratoire d’Anatomie comparée
> 55, rue de Buffon
> 75005 Paris
> 01 40 79 33 11
> fax ------ 33 14
> francoispoplin.blogspot.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bonetools mailing list
> Bonetools at listserv.niif.hu
> https://listserv.niif.hu/mailman/listinfo/bonetools
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://listserv.niif.hu/pipermail/bonetools/attachments/20110802/ae02a3ff/attachment-0001.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: bb 119_SDC13664.JPG
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 496548 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://listserv.niif.hu/pipermail/bonetools/attachments/20110802/ae02a3ff/attachment-0008.jpeg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: bb 118_119_SDC15242.JPG
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 836875 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://listserv.niif.hu/pipermail/bonetools/attachments/20110802/ae02a3ff/attachment-0009.jpeg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: bb 118_119_SDC15243.JPG
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 783062 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://listserv.niif.hu/pipermail/bonetools/attachments/20110802/ae02a3ff/attachment-0010.jpeg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: bb 118_119_SDC15245.JPG
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 802906 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://listserv.niif.hu/pipermail/bonetools/attachments/20110802/ae02a3ff/attachment-0011.jpeg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: bb 118_SDC13464.JPG
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 389790 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://listserv.niif.hu/pipermail/bonetools/attachments/20110802/ae02a3ff/attachment-0012.jpeg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: dvs 199_200_201_202_SDC17579.JPG
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 512777 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://listserv.niif.hu/pipermail/bonetools/attachments/20110802/ae02a3ff/attachment-0013.jpeg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: dvs 199_200_201_202_SDC17571.JPG
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 510260 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://listserv.niif.hu/pipermail/bonetools/attachments/20110802/ae02a3ff/attachment-0014.jpeg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: dvs 199_200_201_202_SDC17576.JPG
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 570615 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://listserv.niif.hu/pipermail/bonetools/attachments/20110802/ae02a3ff/attachment-0015.jpeg>