[Bonetools] Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : protohistoric object

[Katherine M. Moore]

To extend this endeavor, I have multiple cases of worked astralguli  
from Gonur depe in Turkemenistan (Bronze age ca 2000 B.C), including a  
cache (of examples including both sheep and pig). Ritual? Utilitarian?

It's wonderful to see all these examples come together.

best,

Kate Moore

Quoting Selena Vitezovic <selenavitezovic at gmail.com>:

> Hello everyone,
>
> I think Benjamin should organize a round table dedicated to the use of
> astragals in prehistoric Europe, as it seems they occur everywhere with
> endless variety in modes of use.
>
> Here is my contribution to the topic, astragals from two sites in Serbia.
> Those labeled *dvs* are from Divostin, central Serbia, Vin?a culture (Late
> Neolithic / Early Aeneolithic) and those labeled *bb* are from Bubanj,
> eastern Serbia, Bubanj culture (Aeneolithic).
> My hypothesis is that both types were used on soft, organic materials, as
> polish is very intense. I would expect more regular, deeper lines and
> incisions if they have been used on pottery. Oh, yes, those from Divostin
> are sheep astragals, and from Bubanj one is from red deer, the other from
> pig.
>
> Otherwise, Benjamin, I am really looking forward to see results of your
> experiments, hope they will be sucessful.
>
> best regards, selena
>
>
>
> On 27 July 2011 12:11, MARQUEBIELLE Benjamin <benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>> wrote:
>
>> Cher monsieur Poplin.
>> Je n'ai pas le détail du travail du bronze sur le site, mais s'il est une
>> activité artisanale bien représentée, c'est bien la métallurgie. Voila
>> pourquoi nous tenons tant à expérimenter le travail de ce matériau. Nous
>> serions bien sur très intéressé par vos écrits ! J'ai transmis votre mail à
>> Mlle Nadia Cavanhié, archéozoologue en charge de l'étude de ce matériel, qui
>> saura mieux que moi répondre à vos questions.
>> Bien à vous
>>
>> Dear M. Poplin
>> I have no precise idea about the bronze working on the site, but metal
>> industry is a very frequent crafting activity. That's why we're wanting so
>> much experiment the work of this material with phalanges. We are so very
>> interested about your papers!
>> I passed on your e-mail to Miss Nadia Cavanhié, zooarchaeologist who
>> studying this material. She will know better that I to answer your
>> questions.
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Marquebielle Benjamin
>> PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
>> 5, rue du pont Guilheméry
>> 31000 Toulouse
>> tel : 06 71 33 61 52
>> e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *De :* François Poplin <poplin at mnhn.fr>
>> *À :* "Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the study
>> of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn." <
>> bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>
>> *Envoyé le :* Mer 27 juillet 2011, 11h 04min 52s
>> *Objet :* Re: [Bonetools] Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : protohistoric object
>>
>> Cher Monsieur,
>>
>> je vois que cela commence à parler de métal. Je voulais justement vous
>> demander ce que vous avez comme objets de bronze ; avez-vous des bandeaux
>> fins, par exemple ? des lames ? Et avez-vous des signes manifestes du
>> travail du bronze (scories, etc.) ?
>>
>> D'autre part combien avez-vous de ces phalanges ? et des deux sortes,
>> c'est-à-dire combien de la "gauche" et combien de la "droite" du plan de
>> symétrie du pied ? et en avez-vous trouvé à l'état groupé ?
>>
>> J'ai écrit sur le fourbissages des métaux - je peux vous envoyer cela par
>> la poste ; à quelle adresse ?
>>
>> Bien à vous.
>>
>>
>>
>> Le 27/07/2011 10:46, MARQUEBIELLE Benjamin a écrit :
>>
>> Thank you Jackie, very interesting experiments ! I'll send you the results
>> of our metal experiment. I agree with you about the hight possibilities of
>> using these kind of pieces like tool and not only like gaming pieces !
>> About the Ethan hypothesis (smoothing and burnishing plaster on walls),
>> why not, but the phalanges are small (some come from young animals) and some
>> of them present a very small active part... Maybe a very precise work ? And
>> about grinding small amounts of delicate materials like spices, pigments or
>> medicines, there isn't a lot of indications in favour of these hypothesis.
>> There's no traces (micro or macroscopic) of pigments (and the conservation
>> of some objetcs is quite good) and all the objects present same oblique
>> striations, all in the same direction.
>>
>> Thanks for all these ideas and hypothesis !
>>
>> Marquebielle Benjamin
>> PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
>> 5, rue du pont Guilheméry
>> 31000 Toulouse
>> tel : 06 71 33 61 52
>> e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>> *De :* Etan Ayalon <etana at eretzmuseum.org.il> <etana at eretzmuseum.org.il>
>> *À :* "Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for thestudy
>> of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn."
>> <bonetools at listserv.niif.hu> <bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>
>> *Envoyé le :* Dim 24 juillet 2011, 8h 06min 43s
>> *Objet :* Re: [Bonetools] Re : Re : Re : Re : protohistoric object
>>
>> Dear all,
>> Another possibility of using straight sided phalanges on wet material
>> without bothering on the problem of the rounded shape of pottery vessels:
>> smoothing and burnishing plaster on walls! This was done on walls of
>> dwelling houses as well as of installations (i.e., connected with liquids),
>> on lime-white plaster as well as on muddy-brown plaster, etc. We are all
>> aware of the beautiful photos from Africa showing women coating their houses
>> with mud and colors and burnishing them.
>>
>> And how about grinding small amounts of delicate materials like spices,
>> pigments, medicines etc.?
>> Etan Ayalon
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>> *From:* bonetools-bounces at listserv.niif.hu [
>> mailto:bonetools-bounces at listserv.niif.hu<bonetools-bounces at listserv.niif.hu>]
>> *On Behalf Of *MARQUEBIELLE Benjamin
>> *Sent:* Saturday, July 23, 2011 3:03 PM
>> *To:* Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the study
>> ofobject and waste of bone,antler. ivory and horn.
>> *Subject:* [Bonetools] Re : Re : Re : Re : protohistoric object
>>
>>  Hello Jackie, hello Alice
>>
>> Wonderful ! Thank you for the contact, Alice, and, yes, I would like some
>> photos of phalanges from Szazhalombatta please, to compare with my objects.
>> Jackie, this is very interesting and, please, I would like also a copy of
>> your article and poster, of course.
>> We tought these objects could be ceramic smoothers because of the oblique
>> striations of the straight face, and the lack of characteristic traces of
>> hide or leather working (or other smooth raw material), with very bright
>> polish. The result of alternative smooth of inside and outside pots is
>> interesting ! We thought also to experiment the work of metal with a smith
>> and use these objects like smoothers or during quenching and tempering phase
>> of blade production. I'll could share the results of this experiment, as Eva
>> said in a previous message.
>> Thank you for all these informations !
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Marquebielle Benjamin
>> PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
>> 5, rue du pont Guilheméry
>> 31000 Toulouse
>> tel : 06 71 33 61 52
>> e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>> *De :* jacqueline meier  
>> <jacqueline.s.meier at gmail.com><jacqueline.s.meier at gmail.com>
>> *À :* Alice Choyke <h13017cho at iif.hu> <h13017cho at iif.hu>
>> *Cc :* "Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the
>> study of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn."
>> <bonetools at listserv.niif.hu> <bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>
>> *Envoyé le :* Ven 22 juillet 2011, 21h 37min 40s
>> *Objet :* Re: [Bonetools] Re : Re : Re : protohistoric object
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>>  Alice Choyke forwarded me this thread. At the last ICAZ meeting, I
>> presented a poster on an experiment that investigated some astragali
>> artifacts that I studied for my Master's thesis, thanks to Alice. I tried
>> using astragali to work wet and dry clay and hide and compared the resulting
>> macro and microwear to wear on flattened astragali artifacts from the
>> Middle Bronze Age sites of Zagyvapálfalva-Homokbanya and Kisterenye-Hársas
>> in Hungary. If my results would be of interest to anyone, please email me
>> and I will send you a copy of the poster and my submitted article for the
>> ICAZ volume.
>>
>>  In my study, the lack of contextual information was very limiting, but I
>> made several interesting conclusions about the potential of using unmodified
>> astragali as tools. First, it is very easy to use goat astragali to
>> hand-burnish pottery and they are very effective burnishers. Second, the
>> outermost ridges of the medial and lateral bone sides were ground down to a
>> flat surface after 120 minutes of use. Lastly, microwear developed that was
>> very similar to that which was present on the bone artifacts: oblique
>> striations and some micropitting developed. I held the astragali as was
>> indicated by the handling polish on the artifacts and made clay that was
>> comparable to the formula and particle size as clay from the site, thus I am
>> confident in concluding that these flattened astragali were  
>> *potentially*used for burnishing leather-hard ceramic. Again,  
>> context limits this
>> conclusion, but the wear was assessed with backscatter imaging and looks
>> very similar.
>>
>>  Several key points may be relevant to this thread. One is that astragali
>> do not have to be pre-flattened to burnish ceramic. Any sharp or raised
>> areas are quickly removed by the gritty clay. Second, I used astragali to
>> smooth the inside and outside of round pots and the astragali were flattened
>> straight. This was not intentionally done, in fact I did not notice it until
>> compared the profiles of these astragali with those used to experimentally
>> work hide.
>>
>>  Again, I will send this article and poster to anyone who requests a copy.
>> I look forward to reading about similar experiments with astragali and
>> phalanges.
>>
>>  All the best,
>> Jackie Meier
>> jacqueline.meier at uconn.edu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 9:40 PM, Alice Choyke <h13017cho at iif.hu> wrote:
>>
>>> If you wish I can also send you plentiful photos of phalanges from
>>> Szazhalombatta as well. there are many of these objects from the MBA. You
>>> should also contact Jacquie Meier (jacqueline.s.meier at gmail.com)  
>>> who<jacqueline.s.meier at gmail.com%29+who>did some experiments with  
>>> these objects.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Alice
>>>
>>>  On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 10:35 AM, MARQUEBIELLE Benjamin <
>>> benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr> wrote:
>>>
>>>>  Hello Selena, hello Alice
>>>>
>>>> Marianne Christensen send to me your article, Alice, about
>>>> Jászdózsa?Kápolnahalom and there is photo with worked phalanges.  
>>>> We'll begin
>>>> experiments in August, with potter and smith, maybe they'll bring some
>>>> indications... One of the problem of my object is the context is unclear,
>>>> most of them was found in wells full of rubbish.
>>>> Thanks for the abstract reference, Selena, I'll contact the author !
>>>>
>>>> Best
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Marquebielle Benjamin
>>>> PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
>>>> 5, rue du pont Guilheméry
>>>> 31000 Toulouse
>>>> tel : 06 71 33 61 52
>>>> e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>> *De :* Alice Choyke <h13017cho at iif.hu>
>>>> *À :* "Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the
>>>> study of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn." <
>>>> bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>
>>>> *Envoyé le :* Ven 22 juillet 2011, 10h 17min 18s
>>>> *Objet :* Re: [Bonetools] Re : Re : protohistoric object
>>>>
>>>> Unless the clay surfaces being smoothed are straight such as the wall of
>>>> an oven: I have been struggling with the exact same problem for astragalii
>>>> and phalanges of all kinds, especially from the Middle Bronze Age  
>>>> of Hungary
>>>> and am not much smarter than I began... Multiple hypotheses need  
>>>> to be tried
>>>> out again and and again because sadly there will not be one right  
>>>> answer to
>>>> this problem. It is definitely context driven.
>>>>
>>>>  Alice
>>>>
>>>> *De :* Selena Vitezovic <selenavitezovic at gmail.com>
>>>> *À :* "Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the
>>>> study of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn." <
>>>> bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>
>>>> *Envoyé le :* Sam 2 juillet 2011, 19h 10min 35s
>>>>
>>>> *Objet :* Re: [Bonetools] Re : protohistoric object
>>>>
>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>> Hello, Benjamin,
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps a little bit out of time and place - but last year at ICAZ
>>>> conference I saw a poster on astragals from Bronze age Hungary  
>>>> with similar
>>>> usewear pattern, used probably for clay working.
>>>> This is the link for the abstract, perhaps photos may be found or asked
>>>> from author.
>>>> http://alexandriaarchive.org/bonecommons/items/show/1383
>>>>
>>>> And I agree with Marloes, they must have been flattened before use. Some
>>>> other used astragals, from Balkan Neolithic and Chalcolithic,  
>>>> seemed to have
>>>> been flattened before use (probably with sandstone) - although they were
>>>> most likely used on soft, organic materials, since they have  
>>>> intense polish.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> best, selena
>>>>
>>>>   On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 9:51 AM, MARQUEBIELLE Benjamin <
>>>> ivrel001 at yahoo.fr> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  Hello Marloes, sorry for the delay, I traveled.
>>>>> Good remark... Phalanges internal side are flat but not so flat. I agree
>>>>> with you : the (possible) worked surface must be straight and a pottery
>>>>> generaly isn't.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best
>>>>> Benjamin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Marquebielle Benjamin
>>>>> PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
>>>>> 5, rue du pont Guilheméry
>>>>> 31000 Toulouse
>>>>> tel : 06 71 33 61 52
>>>>> e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>>> *De :* Marloes Rijkelijkhuizen <marloesrijkelijkhuizen at hotmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> *À :* bonetools at listserv.niif.hu
>>>>>  *Envoyé le :* Ven 1 juillet 2011, 21h 02min 49s
>>>>>
>>>>> *Objet :* Re: [Bonetools] Re : protohistoric object
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Benjamin
>>>>>
>>>>> I couldn't see if it was flattened (before use).
>>>>>
>>>>> If used, it should be used for/on something with a flat surface, the
>>>>> surface is completely flat. (compare the medieval skates, these  
>>>>> were used on
>>>>> ice and have a flat surface, but were sometimes flattened before use). If
>>>>> used for pottery the surface wouldn't be straight.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best, Marloes
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>>> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 12:35:47 +0100
>>>>> From: benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>>>>> To: bonetools at listserv.niif.hu
>>>>> Subject: [Bonetools] Re : protohistoric object
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>>> I send photo of another object where you can see more precisely the
>>>>> traces. Use wear area is the result of the use/exploitation of  
>>>>> the flatest
>>>>> face of the phalanx, maybe with a kind of abrasion technique... The
>>>>> mophologic modification of the bone could be various but never very
>>>>> important.
>>>>>
>>>>> Non, il ne s'agit pas de sciage.
>>>>> Je joins une photo d'un autre objet sur laquelle on voit plus
>>>>> précisément les stigmates. La zone d'usure est le résultat de  
>>>>> l'utilisation
>>>>> ou de l'exploitation de la face la plus plate de la phalange,  
>>>>> peut être en
>>>>> utilisant une technique d'abrasion... Ce degré d'usure peut  
>>>>> varier mais il
>>>>> n'est jamais très important.
>>>>>
>>>>> Marquebielle Benjamin
>>>>> PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
>>>>> 5, rue du pont Guilheméry
>>>>> 31000 Toulouse
>>>>> tel : 06 71 33 61 52
>>>>> e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>>> *De :* François Poplin <poplin at mnhn.fr>
>>>>> *À :* bonetools at listserv.niif.hu
>>>>> *Envoyé le :* Ven 1 juillet 2011, 12h 20min 16s
>>>>> *Objet :* Re: [Bonetools] protohistoric object
>>>>>
>>>>> Est-il sûr qu'il ne s'agit pas d'un sciage ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Would not be sawing traces ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Le 01/07/2011 11:00, MARQUEBIELLE Benjamin a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello !
>>>>> Does anybody have an idea about the type or function of this object ?
>>>>> It's an young pig phalanx, with use wear traces on the internal face,
>>>>> covered by oblique striations. It comes from large protohistoric  
>>>>> site(possible marketplace) of Toulouse, in the south of France  
>>>>> (II-I° century
>>>>> BC). About 20 objects was found, a majority made of pig  
>>>>> phalanxes (young or
>>>>> not) and only two made of bovid pahlanxes. Use wear is always  
>>>>> located on the
>>>>> same face, with different use degree and some objetcs are perforated on
>>>>> the proximal face. We thought about a kind of smoother (in relation
>>>>> with potery ? metal ?) but objects are realy small and found in various
>>>>> contexts (more often in wells full of rubbish).
>>>>> Thanks a lot and best regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Marquebielle Benjamin
>>>>> PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
>>>>> 5, rue du pont Guilheméry
>>>>> 31000 Toulouse
>>>>> tel : 06 71 33 61 52
>>>>> e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Bonetools mailing  
>>>>> listBonetools at listserv.niif.huhttps://listserv.niif.hu/mailman/listinfo/bonetools
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> François POPLIN
>>>>>
>>>>> Directeur honoraire de l?UMR 7209 Archéozoologie, Archébotanique  
>>>>> : sociétés, pratiques et environnements
>>>>>
>>>>> Responsable du Séminaire d'Anthropozoologie
>>>>>
>>>>> Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle
>>>>> CP 56
>>>>> Ancien Laboratoire d?Anatomie comparée
>>>>> 55, rue de Buffon
>>>>> 75005 Paris
>>>>> 01 40 79 33 11
>>>>> fax ------ 33 14
>>>>> francoispoplin.blogspot.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jacqueline S. Meier, MSc
>> Department of Anthropology
>> Unit 2176, 354 Mansfield Road
>> University of Connecticut
>> Storrs, CT   06269
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________________
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>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>> --
>> François POPLIN
>>
>> Directeur honoraire de l?UMR 7209 Archéozoologie, Archébotanique :  
>> sociétés, pratiques et environnements
>>
>> Responsable du Séminaire d'Anthropozoologie
>>
>> Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle
>> CP 56
>> Ancien Laboratoire d?Anatomie comparée
>> 55, rue de Buffon
>> 75005 Paris
>> 01 40 79 33 11
>> fax ------ 33 14
>> francoispoplin.blogspot.com
>>
>>
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>



Zooarchaeology Laboratory
University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology
3260 South Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104 USA