[Bonetools] The two pieces of the Louvre.
François Poplin
poplin at mnhn.fr
Sat Mar 23 09:53:24 CET 2013
I prepared the following linez that night. I'll answer in your message
afterwards.
I did not want to tell you what I thought of the function before, in
order not to kill the discussion. Just two remarks now, and an addition :
- what is the question coming now ?
- we have to pay attention to (for ?) words. In french, I would not
speak of "écarteur de perles" but of "écarteurs de rangs de perles" (An
"écarteur de perles" would be between two beads). In english, something
as /bead row spacer/, but "spacer" is involved not inly in rows and
files, but also in crosses, rings, etc., many kinds of arrangments in space.
And : besides "perle" in french, are two terms in english, /pearl/ and
/bead/, the first being refered to (linked with) mother of the pearl,
the second not. Formerly, /bead/ had a brother in french, "grain" (ie.
"de chapelet"). Do you know, without looking neither in the
dictionnaries nor in Google, the origin of /bead/ ? The prayer, whith
(through ?) an old term /bede/ related with (relative of) german /beten/
"to pray" (the transformation is similar with /bed/ and /Bett/). In
french, a chaplet/rosary/beads maker (or bead, in that case ?) was
called a patenôtrier, build on the beginning /Pater noster (qui es in ...)./
Addition : I have seen recently, in a paper provided by my colleague
Simon Davis as first author, such "spacers" made of bird bone. Would you
like some more comments ?
Le 22/03/2013 19:47, FARRELL E.R. a écrit :
> Dear all,
>
> These spacer beads do seem to be the most similar form to what I have;
> the two from the Louvre, the neolithic Greek examples, and one from
> Dr. Ayalon's Caesarea Maritima publication all seem to be roughly the
> same size and shape with similar treatment of the holes.
No. The neolithic thing of Kyrios Ifantidis are conical holes (from both
sides, I presume), which is normal at that time with flint, etc. There
is a chronology in piercing/drilling, and so forth.
>
> Based on the comparisons I suspect the object I am working with is a
> spacer bead, or at the very least that represents the most likely
> interpretation available at the moment. My one concern with my
> specific example is the wear pattern. The second picture of examples
> Mr. Ifantidis provided gives several different arrangements using a
> spacer bead and I can understand how the wear might be different
> depending on that arrangement.
>
> I cannot manage to figure out a way to arrange beadwork which would
> wear only one hole. Even the furthest hole on the obviously broken end
> (very little of that furthest hole remains, but it can be seen) shows
> no wear. It seems as if it should have wear on at least two holes at
> each end to have use as a spacer bead, which would imply that both
> ends have been broken and reshaped, and several centimeters in length
> are missing.
>
> Also, for the two examples at the Louvre, Dr. Poplin, do you know the
> date or culture they originate from? Considering I now know there are
> similar items from Neolithic Greece and Roman Syria I doubt I can make
> a judgement of date for my object based on comparisons, but I would
> still very much like to know, particularly if the Louvre objects are
> from an Egyptian collection.
>
Being in the coptic collection, the things comes definitely from Egypt.
As quoted by Marie Delassus, the origine is old (Ils proviennent de la
collection Clot-Bey acquise en juillet 1852", and without data - the
same as for you. Dr Bey brought lots of things, even a (living) girafe,
the skeleton of which is here in our collection.
Simply typing "écarteur perles" on Google, you get lots of informations.
The oldest case I know is paleolithic ; there are things like that in
Mycenian, etc. I had in hand a marvelous book named "Beads", I would
like to see again. But they are more then ten now on Google....
I don't forget "A piece, two objects" ; i'll turn back later.
>
>
> As I was writing the above, a colleague saw the archaeological drawing
> of my artefact, and immediately suggested a particular type of loom
> spacer used to attach a tablet-woven border to a plain-woven cloth on
> a vertical loom. Apparently it would be tied only at the end
> (accounting for the odd wear), with loose thread separated in the
> remaining holes. I have not yet seen a photo or drawing of one of
> these so don't know if it is a feasible option, but is anyone else
> familiar with such an object? I know a couple people suggested this
> might be a weaving tablet early on. I will try to find an image, or at
> least a better description for comparison.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Erik Farrell
>
> *From:* bonetools-bounces at listserv.niif.hu
> [bonetools-bounces at listserv.niif.hu] on behalf of Fotis Ifantidis
> [fotisif at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 22 March 2013 16:23
> *To:* Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the
> study of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn.
> *Subject:* Re: [Bonetools] The two pieces of the Louvre.
>
> Dear all,
>
> To add to Erik's inquiry on the interpretation of his multi-holed
> object, I have two bone objects from MN/LN Dispilio in Greece, which I
> am almost certain that are spacers for bead necklaces. Also attached
> is a figure from my 2006 MA study of similar finds from various
> contexts. I could also provide some other references if you wish.
>
> Best,
>
> Fotis
>
> http://auth.academia.edu/fotisifantidis
>
> visualizingneolithic.com <http://visualizingneolithic.com>
>
> theotheracropolis.com <http://theotheracropolis.com>
>
> kalaureiainthepresent.org <http://kalaureiainthepresent.org>
>
> spondylus.wordpress.com <http://spondylus.wordpress.com>
>
>
>
> 2013/3/22 François Poplin <poplin at mnhn.fr <mailto:poplin at mnhn.fr>>
>
> Dear Erik Farrell
> and everybody
>
> the Providence gives only two pieces, but ideal ones : the one is
> complete, giving the dimentions and the number of holes, the other
> is broken (as yours), giving some "interior" comparison points
> and, maybe, the opportunity to go further into the material :
> would you go to histological prepartion/polishing on the breake?
> That was the question behind when I wrote "Haversian or not
> haversian, that's the question". I can at least ask at the Louvre.
>
> The two picture are property of the Musée du Louvre and
> unpublished. Please, no official use without permission of
> dominique.benazeth at louvre.fr <mailto:dominique.benazeth at louvre.fr>
>
> I have not seen yet the two pieces.
>
> Your's faithfully.
>
>
> ------- Message original --------
> Sujet: RE: photos de deux objets en os de la section copte
> Date : Fri, 22 Mar 2013 13:38:47 +0100
> De : Delassus Marie <Marie.Delassus at louvre.fr>
> <mailto:Marie.Delassus at louvre.fr>
> Pour : 'François Poplin' <poplin at mnhn.fr> <mailto:poplin at mnhn.fr>
>
> Je vous fais parvenir sous forme numérique les deux photos que je
> vous ai imprimées mardi dernier. Ces deux objets sont inventoriés
> sous le numéro E 328 j.
>
> Ils proviennent de la collection Clot-Bey acquise en juillet 1852.
>
> Je vous en redonne les dimensions :
>
> -objet complet : L . : 4,5 cm ; l. : 0,8 cm ; ép. : 0,33 cm
>
> -objet fragmentaire : L. : 3,54 cm ; l. : 0,8 cm ; ép. : 0,32 cm
>
> Je suis tout à fait partante pour que vous diffusiez à vos
> collègues ces images.
>
> Marie Delassus
>
>
> --
>
> François POPLIN
>
>
>
> Directeur honoraire de l'UMR 7209 Archéozoologie, Archébotanique : sociétés, pratiques et environnements
>
>
>
> Responsable du Séminaire d'Anthropozoologie
>
>
>
> Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle
>
> CP 56
>
> Ancien Laboratoire d'Anatomie comparée
>
> 55, rue de Buffon
>
> 75005 Paris
>
> 01 40 79 33 11
>
> fax ------ 33 14
>
>
>
> francoispoplin.blogspot.com <http://francoispoplin.blogspot.com>
>
>
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--
François POPLIN
Directeur honoraire de l'UMR 7209 Archéozoologie, Archébotanique : sociétés, pratiques et environnements
Responsable du Séminaire d'Anthropozoologie
Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle
CP 56
Ancien Laboratoire d'Anatomie comparée
55, rue de Buffon
75005 Paris
01 40 79 33 11
fax ------ 33 14
francoispoplin.blogspot.com
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