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I prepared the following linez that night. I'll answer in your
message afterwards.<br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;mso-hyphenate:none"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt">I
did not want to tell you
what I thought of the function before, in order not to kill the
discussion.
Just two remarks now, and an addition :<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;mso-hyphenate:none"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;mso-hyphenate:none"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt">-
what is the question
coming now ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;mso-hyphenate:none"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;mso-hyphenate:none"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt">-
we have to pay attention
to (for ?) words. In french, I would not speak of "écarteur de
perles" but of "écarteurs de rangs de perles" (An "écarteur
de perles" would be between two beads). In english, something as
<i>bead
row spacer</i>, but "spacer" is involved not inly in rows and
files,
but also in crosses, rings, etc., many kinds of arrangments in
space.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;mso-hyphenate:none"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;mso-hyphenate:none"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt">And
: besides
"perle" in french, are two terms in english, <i>pearl</i> and <i>bead</i>,
the first being refered to (linked with) mother of the pearl,
the second not.
Formerly, <i>bead</i> had a brother in french, "grain" (ie. "de
chapelet"). Do you know, without looking neither in the
dictionnaries nor
in Google, the origin of <i>bead</i> ? The prayer, whith
(through ?) an old term
<i>bede</i> related with (relative of) german <i>beten</i> "to
pray"
(the transformation is similar with <i>bed</i> and <i>Bett</i>).
In french, a
chaplet/rosary/beads maker (or bead, in that case ?) was called
a patenôtrier,
build on the beginning <i>Pater noster (qui es in ...).</i><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;mso-hyphenate:none"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;mso-hyphenate:none"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt">Addition
: I have seen
recently, in a paper provided by my colleague Simon Davis as
first author, such
"spacers" made of bird bone. Would you like some more comments ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<br>
<br>
Le 22/03/2013 19:47, FARRELL E.R. a écrit :
<blockquote
cite="mid:4287CB5D81FADB44B4706824B2D03501AC1D@DB3PRD0610MB379.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Context-Type" content="text/html;
charset=Windows-1252">
<div>Dear all,<br>
<br>
These spacer beads do seem to be the most similar form to what I
have; the two from the Louvre, the neolithic Greek examples, and
one from Dr. Ayalon's Caesarea Maritima publication all seem to
be roughly the same size and shape with similar treatment of the
holes.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
No. The neolithic thing of Kyrios Ifantidis are conical holes (from
both sides, I presume), which is normal at that time with flint,
etc. There is a chronology in piercing/drilling, and so forth.<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:4287CB5D81FADB44B4706824B2D03501AC1D@DB3PRD0610MB379.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com"
type="cite">
<div>
<br>
Based on the comparisons I suspect the object I am working with
is a spacer bead, or at the very least that represents the most
likely interpretation available at the moment. My one concern
with my specific example is the wear pattern. The second picture
of examples Mr. Ifantidis provided gives several different
arrangements using a spacer bead and I can understand how the
wear might be different depending on that arrangement.
<br>
<br>
I cannot manage to figure out a way to arrange beadwork which
would wear only one hole. Even the furthest hole on the
obviously broken end (very little of that furthest hole remains,
but it can be seen) shows no wear. It seems as if it should have
wear on at least two holes at each end to have use as a spacer
bead, which would imply that both ends have been broken and
reshaped, and several centimeters in length are missing.
<br>
<br>
Also, for the two examples at the Louvre, Dr. Poplin, do you
know the date or culture they originate from? Considering I now
know there are similar items from Neolithic Greece and Roman
Syria I doubt I can make a judgement of date for my object based
on comparisons, but I would still very much like to know,
particularly if the Louvre objects are from an Egyptian
collection.<br>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
Being in the coptic collection, the things comes definitely from
Egypt. As quoted by Marie Delassus, the origine is old (Ils
proviennent de la collection Clot-Bey acquise en juillet 1852", and
without data - the same as for you. Dr Bey brought lots of things,
even a (living) girafe, the skeleton of which is here in our
collection.<br>
<br>
Simply typing "écarteur perles" on Google, you get lots of
informations. The oldest case I know is paleolithic ; there are
things like that in Mycenian, etc. I had in hand a marvelous book
named "Beads", I would like to see again. But they are more then ten
now on Google....<br>
<br>
I don't forget "A piece, two objects" ; i'll turn back later.<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:4287CB5D81FADB44B4706824B2D03501AC1D@DB3PRD0610MB379.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com"
type="cite">
<div>
<br>
<br>
As I was writing the above, a colleague saw the archaeological
drawing of my artefact, and immediately suggested a particular
type of loom spacer used to attach a tablet-woven border to a
plain-woven cloth on a vertical loom. Apparently it would be
tied only at the end (accounting for the odd wear), with loose
thread separated in the remaining holes. I have not yet seen a
photo or drawing of one of these so don't know if it is a
feasible option, but is anyone else familiar with such an
object? I know a couple people suggested this might be a weaving
tablet early on. I will try to find an image, or at least a
better description for comparison.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Erik Farrell<br>
<br>
<div>
<div> <b>From:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu">bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu">bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu</a>] on behalf of Fotis
Ifantidis [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:fotisif@gmail.com">fotisif@gmail.com</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 22 March 2013 16:23<br>
<b>To:</b> Mailing list for archaeologists of the research
group for the study of object and waste of bone, antler.
ivory and horn.<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bonetools] The two pieces of the
Louvre.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<p><span lang="EN-US">Dear all,</span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US">To add to Erik’s inquiry on the
interpretation of his multi-holed object, I have two
bone objects from MN/LN Dispilio in Greece, which I am
almost certain that are spacers for bead necklaces. Also
attached is a figure from my 2006 MA study of similar
finds from various contexts. I could also provide some
other references if you wish.</span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US">Best,</span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US">Fotis</span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://auth.academia.edu/fotisifantidis">http://auth.academia.edu/fotisifantidis</a></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://visualizingneolithic.com">visualizingneolithic.com</a></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://theotheracropolis.com">theotheracropolis.com</a></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://kalaureiainthepresent.org">kalaureiainthepresent.org</a></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://spondylus.wordpress.com">spondylus.wordpress.com</a></span></p>
<br>
<br>
<div>2013/3/22 François Poplin <span><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:poplin@mnhn.fr">poplin@mnhn.fr</a>></span><br>
<blockquote>
<div>Dear Erik Farrell<br>
and everybody<br>
<br>
the Providence gives only two pieces, but ideal ones :
the one is complete, giving the dimentions and the
number of holes, the other is broken (as yours),
giving some "interior" comparison points and, maybe,
the opportunity to go further into the material :
would you go to histological prepartion/polishing on
the breake? That was the question behind when I wrote
"Haversian or not haversian, that's the question". I
can at least ask at the Louvre.<br>
<br>
The two picture are property of the Musée du Louvre
and unpublished. Please, no official use without
permission of
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dominique.benazeth@louvre.fr">dominique.benazeth@louvre.fr</a><br>
<br>
I have not seen yet the two pieces.<br>
<br>
Your's faithfully.<br>
<br>
<br>
------- Message original --------
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" valign="BASELINE">Sujet: </th>
<td>RE: photos de deux objets en os de la
section copte</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" valign="BASELINE">Date : </th>
<td>Fri, 22 Mar 2013 13:38:47 +0100</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" valign="BASELINE">De : </th>
<td>Delassus Marie <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Marie.Delassus@louvre.fr"><Marie.Delassus@louvre.fr></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" valign="BASELINE">Pour : </th>
<td>'François Poplin' <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:poplin@mnhn.fr"><poplin@mnhn.fr></a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p>Je vous fais parvenir sous forme numérique les deux
photos que je vous ai imprimées mardi dernier. Ces
deux objets sont inventoriés sous le numéro E 328 j.
</p>
<p>Ils proviennent de la collection Clot-Bey acquise
en juillet 1852. </p>
<p>Je vous en redonne les dimensions : </p>
<p>-objet complet : L . : 4,5 cm ; l. : 0,8 cm ; ép. :
0,33 cm </p>
<p>-objet fragmentaire : L. : 3,54 cm ; l. : 0,8 cm ;
ép. : 0,32 cm </p>
<p>Je suis tout à fait partante pour que vous
diffusiez à vos collègues ces images.
</p>
<span> </span>
<div>
<p><span>Marie Delassus </span></p>
<p><span> </span><br>
</p>
<pre>-- </pre>
<pre>François POPLIN </pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>Directeur honoraire de l’UMR 7209 Archéozoologie, Archébotanique : sociétés, pratiques et environnements </pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>Responsable du Séminaire d'Anthropozoologie </pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle </pre>
<pre>CP 56 </pre>
<pre>Ancien Laboratoire d’Anatomie comparée </pre>
<pre>55, rue de Buffon </pre>
<pre>75005 Paris </pre>
<pre>01 40 79 33 11 </pre>
<pre>fax ------ 33 14 </pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://francoispoplin.blogspot.com">francoispoplin.blogspot.com</a> </pre>
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</blockquote>
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</blockquote>
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<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
François POPLIN
Directeur honoraire de l’UMR 7209 Archéozoologie, Archébotanique : sociétés, pratiques et environnements
Responsable du Séminaire d'Anthropozoologie
Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle
CP 56
Ancien Laboratoire d’Anatomie comparée
55, rue de Buffon
75005 Paris
01 40 79 33 11
fax ------ 33 14
francoispoplin.blogspot.com
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