[Bonetools] Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : protohistoric object
François Poplin
poplin at mnhn.fr
Wed Jul 27 11:04:52 CEST 2011
Cher Monsieur,
je vois que cela commence à parler de métal. Je voulais justement vous
demander ce que vous avez comme objets de bronze ; avez-vous des
bandeaux fins, par exemple ? des lames ? Et avez-vous des signes
manifestes du travail du bronze (scories, etc.) ?
D'autre part combien avez-vous de ces phalanges ? et des deux sortes,
c'est-à-dire combien de la "gauche" et combien de la "droite" du plan de
symétrie du pied ? et en avez-vous trouvé à l'état groupé ?
J'ai écrit sur le fourbissages des métaux - je peux vous envoyer cela
par la poste ; à quelle adresse ?
Bien à vous.
Le 27/07/2011 10:46, MARQUEBIELLE Benjamin a écrit :
> Thank you Jackie, very interesting experiments ! I'll send you the
> results of our metal experiment. I agree with you about the hight
> possibilities of using these kind of pieces like tool and not only
> like gaming pieces !
> About the Ethan hypothesis (smoothing and burnishing plaster on
> walls), why not, but the phalanges are small (some come from young
> animals) and some of them present a very small active part... Maybe a
> very precise work ? And about grinding small amounts of delicate
> materials like spices, pigments or medicines, there isn't a lot of
> indications in favour of these hypothesis. There's no traces (micro or
> macroscopic) of pigments (and the conservation of some objetcs is
> quite good) and all the objects present same oblique striations, all
> in the same direction.
>
> Thanks for all these ideas and hypothesis !
> Marquebielle Benjamin
> PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
> 5, rue du pont Guilheméry
> 31000 Toulouse
> tel : 06 71 33 61 52
> e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *De :* Etan Ayalon <etana at eretzmuseum.org.il>
> *À :* "Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for
> thestudy of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn."
> <bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>
> *Envoyé le :* Dim 24 juillet 2011, 8h 06min 43s
> *Objet :* Re: [Bonetools] Re : Re : Re : Re : protohistoric object
>
> Dear all,
> Another possibility of using straight sided phalanges on wet material
> without bothering on the problem of the rounded shape of pottery
> vessels: smoothing and burnishing plaster on walls! This was done on
> walls of dwelling houses as well as of installations (i.e., connected
> with liquids), on lime-white plaster as well as on muddy-brown
> plaster, etc. We are all aware of the beautiful photos from Africa
> showing women coating their houses with mud and colors and burnishing
> them.
> And how about grinding small amounts of delicate materials like
> spices, pigments, medicines etc.?
> Etan Ayalon
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* bonetools-bounces at listserv.niif.hu
> [mailto:bonetools-bounces at listserv.niif.hu] *On Behalf Of
> *MARQUEBIELLE Benjamin
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 23, 2011 3:03 PM
> *To:* Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the
> study ofobject and waste of bone,antler. ivory and horn.
> *Subject:* [Bonetools] Re : Re : Re : Re : protohistoric object
>
> Hello Jackie, hello Alice
>
> Wonderful ! Thank you for the contact, Alice, and, yes, I would like
> some photos of phalanges from Szazhalombatta please, to compare with
> my objects. Jackie, this is very interesting and, please, I would like
> also a copy of your article and poster, of course.
> We tought these objects could be ceramic smoothers because of the
> oblique striations of the straight face, and the lack of
> characteristic traces of hide or leather working (or other smooth raw
> material), with very bright polish. The result of alternative smooth
> of inside and outside pots is interesting ! We thought also to
> experiment the work of metal with a smith and use these objects like
> smoothers or during quenching and tempering phase of blade production.
> I'll could share the results of this experiment, as Eva said in a
> previous message.
> Thank you for all these informations !
>
> All the best
> Marquebielle Benjamin
> PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
> 5, rue du pont Guilheméry
> 31000 Toulouse
> tel : 06 71 33 61 52
> e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *De :* jacqueline meier <jacqueline.s.meier at gmail.com>
> *À :* Alice Choyke <h13017cho at iif.hu>
> *Cc :* "Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the
> study of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn."
> <bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>
> *Envoyé le :* Ven 22 juillet 2011, 21h 37min 40s
> *Objet :* Re: [Bonetools] Re : Re : Re : protohistoric object
>
> Hello,
>
> Alice Choyke forwarded me this thread. At the last ICAZ meeting, I
> presented a poster on an experiment that investigated some astragali
> artifacts that I studied for my Master's thesis, thanks to Alice. I
> tried using astragali to work wet and dry clay and hide and compared
> the resulting macro and microwear to wear on flattened astragali
> artifacts from the Middle Bronze Age sites of
> Zagyvapálfalva-Homokbanya and Kisterenye-Hársas in Hungary. If my
> results would be of interest to anyone, please email me and I will
> send you a copy of the poster and my submitted article for the ICAZ
> volume.
>
> In my study, the lack of contextual information was very limiting, but
> I made several interesting conclusions about the potential of using
> unmodified astragali as tools. First, it is very easy to use goat
> astragali to hand-burnish pottery and they are very effective
> burnishers. Second, the outermost ridges of the medial and lateral
> bone sides were ground down to a flat surface after 120 minutes of
> use. Lastly, microwear developed that was very similar to that which
> was present on the bone artifacts: oblique striations and some
> micropitting developed. I held the astragali as was indicated by the
> handling polish on the artifacts and made clay that was comparable to
> the formula and particle size as clay from the site, thus I am
> confident in concluding that these flattened astragali were
> *potentially* used for burnishing leather-hard ceramic. Again, context
> limits this conclusion, but the wear was assessed with backscatter
> imaging and looks very similar.
>
> Several key points may be relevant to this thread. One is that
> astragali do not have to be pre-flattened to burnish ceramic. Any
> sharp or raised areas are quickly removed by the gritty clay. Second,
> I used astragali to smooth the inside and outside of round pots and
> the astragali were flattened straight. This was not intentionally
> done, in fact I did not notice it until compared the profiles of these
> astragali with those used to experimentally work hide.
>
> Again, I will send this article and poster to anyone who requests a
> copy. I look forward to reading about similar experiments with
> astragali and phalanges.
>
> All the best,
> Jackie Meier
> jacqueline.meier at uconn.edu <mailto:jacqueline.meier at uconn.edu>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 9:40 PM, Alice Choyke <h13017cho at iif.hu
> <mailto:h13017cho at iif.hu>> wrote:
>
> If you wish I can also send you plentiful photos of phalanges from
> Szazhalombatta as well. there are many of these objects from the
> MBA. You should also contact Jacquie Meier
> (jacqueline.s.meier at gmail.com) who
> <mailto:jacqueline.s.meier at gmail.com%29+who> did some experiments
> with these objects.
> Best,
> Alice
>
> On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 10:35 AM, MARQUEBIELLE Benjamin
> <benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
> <mailto:benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr>> wrote:
>
> Hello Selena, hello Alice
>
> Marianne Christensen send to me your article, Alice, about
> Jászdózsa--Kápolnahalom and there is photo with worked
> phalanges. We'll begin experiments in August, with potter and
> smith, maybe they'll bring some indications... One of the
> problem of my object is the context is unclear, most of them
> was found in wells full of rubbish.
> Thanks for the abstract reference, Selena, I'll contact the
> author !
>
> Best
>
> Marquebielle Benjamin
> PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
> 5, rue du pont Guilheméry
> 31000 Toulouse
> tel : 06 71 33 61 52
> e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
> <mailto:benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *De :* Alice Choyke <h13017cho at iif.hu <mailto:h13017cho at iif.hu>>
> *À :* "Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group
> for the study of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and
> horn." <bonetools at listserv.niif.hu
> <mailto:bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>>
> *Envoyé le :* Ven 22 juillet 2011, 10h 17min 18s
> *Objet :* Re: [Bonetools] Re : Re : protohistoric object
>
> Unless the clay surfaces being smoothed are straight such as
> the wall of an oven: I have been struggling with the exact
> same problem for astragalii and phalanges of all kinds,
> especially from the Middle Bronze Age of Hungary and am not
> much smarter than I began... Multiple hypotheses need to be
> tried out again and and again because sadly there will not be
> one right answer to this problem. It is definitely context driven.
> Alice
>
> *De :* Selena Vitezovic <selenavitezovic at gmail.com
> <mailto:selenavitezovic at gmail.com>>
> *À :* "Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group
> for the study of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and
> horn." <bonetools at listserv.niif.hu
> <mailto:bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>>
> *Envoyé le :* Sam 2 juillet 2011, 19h 10min 35s
>
> *Objet :* Re: [Bonetools] Re : protohistoric object
>
> Hello everyone,
> Hello, Benjamin,
>
> Perhaps a little bit out of time and place - but last year at
> ICAZ conference I saw a poster on astragals from Bronze age
> Hungary with similar usewear pattern, used probably for clay
> working.
> This is the link for the abstract, perhaps photos may be found
> or asked from author.
> http://alexandriaarchive.org/bonecommons/items/show/1383
>
> And I agree with Marloes, they must have been flattened before
> use. Some other used astragals, from Balkan Neolithic and
> Chalcolithic, seemed to have been flattened before use
> (probably with sandstone) - although they were most likely
> used on soft, organic materials, since they have intense polish.
>
> best, selena
>
> On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 9:51 AM, MARQUEBIELLE Benjamin
> <ivrel001 at yahoo.fr <mailto:ivrel001 at yahoo.fr>> wrote:
>
> Hello Marloes, sorry for the delay, I traveled.
> Good remark... Phalanges internal side are flat but not so
> flat. I agree with you : the (possible) worked surface
> must be straight and a pottery generaly isn't.
>
> Best
> Benjamin
>
> Marquebielle Benjamin
> PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
> 5, rue du pont Guilheméry
> 31000 Toulouse
> tel : 06 71 33 61 52
> e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
> <mailto:benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *De :* Marloes Rijkelijkhuizen
> <marloesrijkelijkhuizen at hotmail.com
> <mailto:marloesrijkelijkhuizen at hotmail.com>>
>
> *À :* bonetools at listserv.niif.hu
> <mailto:bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>
> *Envoyé le :* Ven 1 juillet 2011, 21h 02min 49s
>
> *Objet :* Re: [Bonetools] Re : protohistoric object
>
> Hi Benjamin
>
> I couldn't see if it was flattened (before use).
>
> If used, it should be used for/on something with a flat
> surface, the surface is completely flat. (compare the
> medieval skates, these were used on ice and have a flat
> surface, but were sometimes flattened before use). If used
> for pottery the surface wouldn't be straight.
>
> Best, Marloes
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 12:35:47 +0100
> From: benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
> <mailto:benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr>
> To: bonetools at listserv.niif.hu
> <mailto:bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>
> Subject: [Bonetools] Re : protohistoric object
>
> No, it isn't.
> I send photo of another object where you can see more
> precisely the traces. Use wear area is the result of the
> use/exploitation of the flatest face of the phalanx, maybe
> with a kind of abrasion technique... The mophologic
> modification of the bone could be various but never very
> important.
>
> Non, il ne s'agit pas de sciage.
> Je joins une photo d'un autre objet sur laquelle on voit
> plus précisément les stigmates. La zone d'usure est le
> résultat de l'utilisation ou de l'exploitation de la face
> la plus plate de la phalange, peut être en utilisant une
> technique d'abrasion... Ce degré d'usure peut varier mais
> il n'est jamais très important.
> Marquebielle Benjamin
> PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
> 5, rue du pont Guilheméry
> 31000 Toulouse
> tel : 06 71 33 61 52
> e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
> <mailto:benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *De :* François Poplin <poplin at mnhn.fr
> <mailto:poplin at mnhn.fr>>
> *À :* bonetools at listserv.niif.hu
> <mailto:bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>
> *Envoyé le :* Ven 1 juillet 2011, 12h 20min 16s
> *Objet :* Re: [Bonetools] protohistoric object
>
> Est-il sûr qu'il ne s'agit pas d'un sciage ?
>
> Would not be sawing traces ?
>
> Le 01/07/2011 11:00, MARQUEBIELLE Benjamin a écrit :
>
> Hello !
> Does anybody have an idea about the type or function
> of this object ? It's an young pig phalanx, with use
> wear traces on the internal face, covered by oblique
> striations. It comes from large protohistoric site
> (possible marketplace) of Toulouse, in the south of
> France (II-I° century BC). About 20 objects was found,
> a majority made of pig phalanxes (young or not) and
> only two made of bovid pahlanxes. Use wear is always
> located on the same face, with different use degree
> and some objetcs are perforated on the proximal face.
> We thought about a kind of smoother (in relation with
> potery ? metal ?) but objects are realy small and
> found in various contexts (more often in wells full of
> rubbish).
> Thanks a lot and best regards
> Marquebielle Benjamin
> PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
> 5, rue du pont Guilheméry
> 31000 Toulouse
> tel : 06 71 33 61 52
> e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
> <mailto:benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr>
>
>
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>
> --
> François POPLIN
>
> Directeur honoraire de l'UMR 7209 Archéozoologie, Archébotanique : sociétés, pratiques et environnements
>
> Responsable du Séminaire d'Anthropozoologie
>
> Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle
> CP 56
> Ancien Laboratoire d'Anatomie comparée
> 55, rue de Buffon
> 75005 Paris
> 01 40 79 33 11
> fax ------ 33 14
>
> francoispoplin.blogspot.com <http://francoispoplin.blogspot.com>
>
>
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> --
> Jacqueline S. Meier, MSc
> Department of Anthropology
> Unit 2176, 354 Mansfield Road
> University of Connecticut
> Storrs, CT 06269
>
>
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--
François POPLIN
Directeur honoraire de l'UMR 7209 Archéozoologie, Archébotanique : sociétés, pratiques et environnements
Responsable du Séminaire d'Anthropozoologie
Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle
CP 56
Ancien Laboratoire d'Anatomie comparée
55, rue de Buffon
75005 Paris
01 40 79 33 11
fax ------ 33 14
francoispoplin.blogspot.com
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