[Bonetools] Re : Re : Re : protohistoric object

Fri Jul 22 10:35:44 CEST 2011

Hello Selena, hello Alice

Marianne Christensen send to me your article, Alice, about 
Jászdózsa–Kápolnahalom and there is photo with worked phalanges. We'll begin 
experiments in August, with potter and smith, maybe they'll bring some 
indications... One of the problem of my object is the context is unclear, most 
of them was found in wells full of rubbish.
Thanks for the abstract reference, Selena, I'll contact the author !

Best

 Marquebielle Benjamin
PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
5, rue du pont Guilheméry
31000 Toulouse
tel : 06 71 33 61 52
e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr

________________________________
De : Alice Choyke <h13017cho at iif.hu>
À : "Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the study of  
object and waste of bone,  antler. ivory and horn." <bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>
Envoyé le : Ven 22 juillet 2011, 10h 17min 18s
Objet : Re: [Bonetools] Re : Re : protohistoric object

Unless the clay surfaces being smoothed are straight such as the wall of an 
oven: I have been struggling with the exact same problem for astragalii and 
phalanges of all kinds, especially from the Middle Bronze Age of Hungary and am 
not much smarter than I began... Multiple hypotheses need to be tried out again 
and and again because sadly there will not be one right answer to this problem. 
It is definitely context driven.

Alice 

De : Selena Vitezovic <selenavitezovic at gmail.com>
À : "Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the study of  
object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn."  <bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>
Envoyé le : Sam 2 juillet 2011, 19h 10min 35s
Objet : Re: [Bonetools] Re : protohistoric object

Hello everyone, 
Hello, Benjamin, 

Perhaps  a little bit out of time and place - but last year at ICAZ conference I  
saw a poster on astragals from Bronze age Hungary with similar usewear  pattern, 
used probably for clay working. 

This is the link for the abstract, perhaps photos may be found or asked from 
author. 

http://alexandriaarchive.org/bonecommons/items/show/1383 

And I agree with Marloes, they must have been flattened before use.  Some other 
used astragals, from Balkan Neolithic and Chalcolithic,  seemed to have been 
flattened before use (probably with sandstone) -  although they were most likely 
used on soft, organic materials, since  they have intense polish. 

best, selena 

On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 9:51 AM, MARQUEBIELLE Benjamin <ivrel001 at yahoo.fr> 
wrote:

Hello Marloes, sorry for the delay, I traveled.
>Good remark... Phalanges internal side are flat but not so flat. I agree with 
>you : the (possible) worked surface must be straight and a pottery generaly 
>isn't.
>
>Best
>Benjamin
>
>
> Marquebielle Benjamin
>PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
>5, rue du pont Guilheméry
>31000 Toulouse
>tel : 06 71 33 61 52
>e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
De : Marloes Rijkelijkhuizen  <marloesrijkelijkhuizen at hotmail.com>
>
>À : bonetools at listserv.niif.hu
>Envoyé le : Ven 1 juillet 2011, 21h 02min 49s
>
>Objet : Re: [Bonetools] Re :  protohistoric object
>
>
>
>Hi Benjamin
> 
>I couldn't see if it was flattened (before use). 
> 
>If used, it should be used for/on something with a flat surface, the surface is 
>completely flat. (compare the medieval skates, these were used on ice and have a 
>flat surface, but were sometimes flattened before use). If used for pottery the 
>surface wouldn't be straight.
> 
>Best, Marloes
>
> 
>
>
________________________________
 Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 12:35:47 +0100
>From: benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>To: bonetools at listserv.niif.hu
>Subject: [Bonetools] Re : protohistoric object
>
>
>No, it isn't.
>I send photo of another object where you can see more precisely the traces. Use 
>wear area is the result of the use/exploitation of the flatest face of the 
>phalanx, maybe with a kind of abrasion technique... The mophologic modification 
>of the bone could be various but never very important.
>
>Non, il ne s'agit pas de sciage. 
>Je joins une photo d'un autre objet sur laquelle on voit plus précisément les 
>stigmates. La zone d'usure est le résultat de l'utilisation ou de l'exploitation 
>de la face la plus plate de la phalange, peut être en utilisant une technique 
>d'abrasion... Ce degré d'usure peut varier mais il n'est jamais très important.
>
> Marquebielle Benjamin
>PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
>5, rue du pont Guilheméry
>31000 Toulouse
>tel : 06 71 33 61 52
>e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
 De : François Poplin <poplin at mnhn.fr>
>À : bonetools at listserv.niif.hu
>Envoyé le : Ven 1 juillet 2011, 12h 20min 16s
>Objet : Re: [Bonetools] protohistoric object
>
>Est-il sûr qu'il ne s'agit pas d'un sciage ?
>
>Would not be sawing traces ?
>
>Le 01/07/2011 11:00, MARQUEBIELLE Benjamin a écrit : 
>Hello !
>>Does anybody have an idea about the type or function of this object ? It's an 
>>young pig phalanx, with use wear traces on the internal face, covered by oblique 
>>striations. It comes from large protohistoric site (possible marketplace) of 
>>Toulouse, in the south of France (II-I° century BC). About 20 objects was found, 
>>a majority made of pig phalanxes (young or not) and only two made of bovid 
>>pahlanxes. Use wear is always located on the same face, with different use 
>>degree and some objetcs are perforated on the proximal face. We thought about a 
>>kind of smoother (in relation with potery ? metal ?) but objects are  realy 
>>small and found in various contexts (more often in wells full of rubbish).
>>Thanks a lot and best regards
>>
>> Marquebielle Benjamin
>>PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
>>5, rue du pont Guilheméry
>>31000 Toulouse
>>tel : 06 71 33 61 52
>>e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________ Bonetools mailing list 
>>Bonetools at listserv.niif.hu https://listserv.niif.hu/mailman/listinfo/bonetools 
>>

--  François POPLIN  Directeur honoraire de l’UMR 7209 Archéozoologie, 
Archébotanique : sociétés, pratiques et environnements  Responsable du Séminaire 
d'Anthropozoologie  Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle CP 56 Ancien 
Laboratoire d’Anatomie comparée 55, rue de Buffon 75005 Paris 01 40 79 33 11 fax 
------ 33 14  francoispoplin.blogspot.com 

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