<html dir="ltr">
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<style id="owaParaStyle" type="text/css">P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}</style>
</head>
<body ocsi="0" fpstyle="1">
<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: 10pt;">Hi everyone,<br>
Hi Alice, Christian<br>
<br>
Yes, I would agree to dedicate a particular session on that topic in our next wbrg meeting if our dear Romanian colleagues are agree:<br>
Archaeological evidences on the use of bony matter as a fresh or stored material, and its implication<br>
Ludmila, what do you think?<br>
<br>
In the nordic Mesolithic, storing places for bone material called "refuse layer" are under discussion...<br>
<br>
That is better to have an extra session than just put some extra data on our web page<br>
+ it will give us the opportunity to share our knowledge from our work, just not informal as through the mailing list lines I read, but formalized in a presentation, whatever they come from, object study or synthetic readings (taphonomy, archaeology, ethnography,
modern experiences of craftmans...).<br>
<br>
Always enjoying being in tuch with you guys and ready to improve as much my knowledge on bone through<br>
our meetings and discussions.<br>
<br>
Best, éva<br>
<br>
<div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px">
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><font face="Tahoma"><font color="800080">--------------</font><br>
<font color="800080">Dr. Ph.D. Eva DAVID</font></font><font color="800080"><br>
<font face="Tahoma">CNRS Laboratoire Préhistoire et technologie UMR 7055<br>
Maison Archéologie Ethnologie<br>
Université Paris Ouest Nanterre La Défense<br>
21, allée de l'Université<br>
F-92023 Nanterre cedex</font><br>
<font face="Tahoma">+33 1 46 69 24 22</font><br>
<font face="Tahoma">http://www.mae.u-paris10.fr/prehistoire/spip.php?article17</font></font><br>
<hr>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000; font-size: 16px">
<hr tabindex="-1">
<div style="direction: ltr;" id="divRpF558494"><font face="Tahoma" color="#000000" size="2"><b>De :</b> Bonetools [bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu] de la part de Christian Gates St-Pierre [cgates70@yahoo.fr]<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> vendredi 14 août 2015 18:21<br>
<b>À :</b> Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the study of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn.; dkconstantine@btinternet.com<br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Bonetools] bones as raw material - fresh or stored?<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,linéale; font-size:13px">
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26158">Hi everyone,</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26157"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26022">I agree with most of what's been said already: bone is best worked when it is not too fresh, and not too dry, and there are many possible treatments to make bones more workable. I did not personnally experimented
a large array of techniques, but informations can be gleaned in the ethnographic, ethnoarchaeological, and experimental litterature.<br>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26019"><br>
<span></span></div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26610"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26608">Alice: i</span><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26608">t would be great indeed to post this discussion thread on the WGRG web page, as it may be of interest to many other
specialists and students.</span></div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26823"><br>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26938">Best,</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26939"><br>
<span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26608"></span></div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26824"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26608">Christian<br>
</span></div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26020"> </div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26021" class="signature">
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429623001091_14059" dir="ltr"><b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429623001091_14084">Christian Gates St-Pierre</b><br>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429623001091_14070" dir="ltr">Chercheur invité/Invited Researcher<br>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429623001091_14071" dir="ltr">Département d'anthropologie</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1429623001091_14072" dir="ltr">Université de Montréal</div>
christian.gates-st-pierre@umontreal.ca</div>
<br>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26212" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,linéale; font-size:13px">
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26211" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,linéale; font-size:16px">
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26210" dir="ltr">
<hr id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26662" size="1">
<font id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26346" face="Arial" size="2"><b><span style="font-weight:bold">De :</span></b> Alice Choyke <Choyke@ceu.edu><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">À :</span></b> dkconstantine@btinternet.com; bonetools@listserv.niif.hu
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Envoyé le :</span></b> vendredi 14 août 2015 5h28<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Objet :</span></b> Re: [Bonetools] bones as raw material - fresh or stored?<br>
</font></div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26217" class="y_msg_container"><br>
<div id="yiv2141909903">
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26216">
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26876">Dear all - this is a rather interesting line of discussion that perhaps could profitably be added to webpage under the experimentation section managed by Eva David. What do you think Christian. I suspect these techniques
were variable across time and space and the more we collect of ourown experiences with bone working the better!</div>
<br clear="none">
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26215">Alice<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26214" style="clear:both">
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26213" class="yiv2141909903MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0pt">
<span style="text-transform:uppercase; font-family:'Open Sans Extrabold','sans-serif'" lang="EN-GB">ALICE M. CHOYKE</span></div>
<div class="yiv2141909903MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:9pt; font-family:'Georgia','serif'" lang="EN-GB">Associate Professor</span></i></div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26220" class="yiv2141909903MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0pt">
<span style="text-transform:uppercase; font-family:'Open Sans Light','sans-serif'" lang="EN-GB">--------------------------------------------------------</span><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26219" style="font-family:'Times','serif'"></span><span style="font-family:'Times','serif'"></span></div>
<div class="yiv2141909903MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0pt; line-height:115%">
<span style="text-transform:uppercase; color:#009acd" lang="EN-GB">Central European University</span></div>
<div class="yiv2141909903MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0pt; line-height:115%">
<span style="" lang="EN-GB"></span>
<div class="yiv2141909903MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0pt; line-height:115%">
<span style="" lang="EN-GB">Medieval Studies Department</span></div>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26901" class="yiv2141909903MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0pt; line-height:115%">
<span style="" lang="EN-GB">Nador u. 9, </span></div>
<div class="yiv2141909903MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><span style="" lang="EN-GB">1051
</span><span style="" lang="EN-GB">Budapest, Hungary</span><span style="font-family:'Times','serif'"></span></div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26932" class="yiv2141909903MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0pt">
<b><span style="text-transform:uppercase" lang="EN-GB">Office</span></b><b style=""><span style="" lang="EN-GB">:</span></b><span style="" lang="EN-GB"> + 36.1.327-3801</span><b><span style="text-transform:uppercase; font-family:'OpenSans-Bold','serif'" lang="EN-GB">
</span></b><a id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26931" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:choyke@ceu.hu" target="_blank"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26930" style="" lang="EN-GB"><font id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26929" color="#0000ff">choyke@ceu.hu</font></span></a><span style="" lang="EN-GB">
<span style="color:#009acd">|</span> </span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="http://www.ceu.hu/" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="EN-GB"><font color="#0000ff">www.ceu.hu</font></span></a><span style="" lang="EN-GB">
<span style="color:#009acd">|</span></span></div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26227" class="yiv2141909903MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0pt">
<span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26226" style="" lang="EN-GB"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26225" style="color:#009acd"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="http://www.wbrg.net/" target="_blank">www.wbrg.net</a>
<span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26224" style="color:#009acd">| <font id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26223" color="#009933">
<a id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26933" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="http://www.imareal.sbg.ac.at/mad/" target="_blank">www.imareal.sbg.ac.at/mad/</a>
<span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26222" style="color:#009acd">| <a id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26221" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="http://www.medievalstudies.ceu.hu/" target="_blank">
www.medievalstudies.ceu.hu</a></span></font></span></span></span><span style="font-family:'Times','serif'"></span></div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26228" class="yiv2141909903MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0pt; line-height:115%">
<b><span style="text-transform:uppercase" lang="EN-GB">See CEU story</span></b><b style=""><span style="" lang="EN-GB">:
</span></b><span style="" lang="EN-GB"><span style=""> </span></span><a id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26936" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="http://www.youtube.com/ceuhungary" target="_blank"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26935" style="" lang="EN-GB"><font id="yui_3_16_0_1_1439564222170_26934" color="#0000ff">www.youtube.com/ceuhungary</font></span></a><span style="" lang="EN-GB">
</span><span style="font-family:'Times','serif'"></span></div>
</div>
<div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="yiv2141909903yqt9740022551" id="yiv2141909903yqtfd47936"><br clear="none">
>>> "Dave Constantine" <dkconstantine@btinternet.com> 08/04/15 2:30 PM >>><br clear="none">
Hi Lena,<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Bone can be worked dry but is less forgiving and has a tendency to fracture <br clear="none">
more easily than when fresh or soaked.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Depending on the type of working, my personal preferences for softening are <br clear="none">
soaking or boiling in water. Soaking is used for general working - when <br clear="none">
making small objects such as needles and pins I keep the blanks in a pot of <br clear="none">
water all the time so that they are always soaked when I come to work them. <br clear="none">
Boiling is used when I am carving (particularly antler) as I find it <br clear="none">
penetrates further and more rapidly than soaking alone and the effect can be <br clear="none">
renewed quickly and easily, making it particularly suitable for the removal <br clear="none">
of large amounts of material when carving a design. Generally I boil the <br clear="none">
material for 10-15 minutes (depending on size) then have about the same in <br clear="none">
working time before it dries out too much.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
When it is thoroughly soaked in water bone tends to "shave" rather than <br clear="none">
"flake" when worked with a blade, which allows for quicker and neater <br clear="none">
shaping of the basic form of the object. However, for any work involving <br clear="none">
files and rasps I would recommend dry bone to prevent clogging. Boiling <br clear="none">
gives a similar effect but it can be achieved more rapidly. Due to the <br clear="none">
nature of bone though, boiling can cause hairline longitudinal cracks to <br clear="none">
appear that are not always immediately noticeable, and so care must be taken <br clear="none">
to keeping checking the state of the bone.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Fresh bone can be very easily worked, and for a roughing out stage it is a <br clear="none">
good idea to do at least some basic preparation when the bone is fresh. If <br clear="none">
working with longbones, I would normally remove the epiphyses and split the <br clear="none">
bone lengthways while fresh. This also has the added advantage of removing <br clear="none">
much of the material that would leak excess grease/fat into the workable <br clear="none">
sections if the bone were processed whole. Anything involving shock to the <br clear="none">
bone; e.g. using an axe, is best done when the bone is fresh as it is far <br clear="none">
less likely to shatter than dry or even softened bone.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
There would probably be some difference in saw marks left on fresh bone <br clear="none">
rather than dry/soaked bone, but I haven't tried it in earnest yet and <br clear="none">
compared the two. I did a quick test a couple of years ago with an axe, <br clear="none">
drawknife and rasp (dry bone) and axe and drawknife (fresh bone) and there <br clear="none">
certainly seemed to be some difference in the marks. In particular, the last <br clear="none">
point of contact between the waste shaving and the main bone was notable; <br clear="none">
more of break on the dry bone and more of a cut on the fresh bone. I am sure <br clear="none">
that once checked under a microscope it would be clearer.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Sorry for the brief reply, but feel free to ask any specific questions and <br clear="none">
if I can answer them I will.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Regards,<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
David Constantine<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
-----Original Message----- <br clear="none">
From: Lena Strid<br clear="none">
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2015 11:42 AM<br clear="none">
To: Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the study of<br clear="none">
object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn.<br clear="none">
Subject: [Bonetools] bones as raw material - fresh or stored?<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Dear all,<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Are there any information on whether bones used for bone working (Iron Age -<br clear="none">
early Post-medieval) had to be relatively fresh, or could they be stored for<br clear="none">
months (years?)? MacGregor mentions soaking antler to make it easy to cut,<br clear="none">
but would this also work with dry bone?<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I have difficulty finding information on this, as most things I can find<br clear="none">
concern modern bone working with dremels etc, which I assume would be less<br clear="none">
sensitive to freshness/dryness of bone than using hand tools.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
With thanks,<br clear="none">
Lena<br clear="none">
Files attached to this email may be in ISO 26300 format (OASIS Open Document<br clear="none">
Format). If you have difficulty opening them, please visit<br clear="none">
http://iso26300.info for more information.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
This email has been processed by SmoothZap - www.smoothwall.net<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
Bonetools mailing list<br clear="none">
Bonetools@listserv.niif.hu<br clear="none">
https://listserv.niif.hu/mailman/listinfo/bonetools <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
---<br clear="none">
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.<br clear="none">
http://www.avast.com<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
Bonetools mailing list<br clear="none">
Bonetools@listserv.niif.hu<br clear="none">
https://listserv.niif.hu/mailman/listinfo/bonetools<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="yqt9740022551" id="yqtfd50454">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
Bonetools mailing list<br clear="none">
<a shape="rect" href="mailto:Bonetools@listserv.niif.hu" target="_blank">Bonetools@listserv.niif.hu</a><br clear="none">
<a shape="rect" href="https://listserv.niif.hu/mailman/listinfo/bonetools" target="_blank">https://listserv.niif.hu/mailman/listinfo/bonetools</a><br clear="none">
</div>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>