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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">We have had allready such a
"conference" a coupkle of years go. I recall you :<br>
<br>
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style="font-family:Times">cuivre
(conservation au) </span></b><span
style="font-family:Times">: 167 (cuirs), 179
(épingles corne), 228, 246<br>
</span></p>
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591.05pt"><span style="font-family:Times">167 POPLIN, F., 1992
- Des cuirs de l'Age du Bronze
conservés par le cuivre. <i
style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Autour du cuir,
Rencontres archéologiques de Guiry 1991</i> (1992), Musée
archéol. dép. du Val
d'Oise, 97-102,<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>2
figs.<br>
<br>
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POPLIN
F., 1993 - La corne des épingles,<i
style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">
in</i> : <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Le trésor
d’Eauze</i>,
sous la dir. de D. Schaad, Toulouse, A.P.A.M.P., 359-361, 3
figs</span>.<br>
<br>
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POPLIN F., 1999
- La main verte, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Trésors
méconnus du
Musée de l'Homme</i>, Paris, Cherche-Midi, 141.<br>
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591.05pt"><span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">246 POPLIN F.,
2001 - De Lebeuf à Buffon : la main
verte de Merry-sur-Yonne, <i
style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Bull. Soc. nat.
des Antiquaires de France</i>, 1997 (2001), 282-288, 1
fig.</span></p>
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You can see "verdigrised" ivory knife handles in the Eauze
treasury typing "trésor eauze" on Google. The best in that case
is<big><b> 2 preserved horn pins (I mean : made of horn of
cattle, keratin).</b></big><br>
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<br>
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ostrich eggs : </span></b><span style="font-family:Times">202,
239 </span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span
style="font-family:Times">(with "batik" technic, using
etching)</span></b></p>
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339.05pt 375.05pt 411.05pt 447.05pt 483.05pt 519.05pt 555.05pt
591.05pt"><span style="font-family:Times">202 POPLIN F., 1995
- Sur le polissage des oeufs
d'autruche en archéologie, <i
style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Archaeozoology
of the Near East, II, </i>126-139, 5 fig.<br>
</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;line-height:12.0pt;mso-pagination:
none;mso-hyphenate:none"><span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">239
POPLIN F., 2000
- Œufs d'autruche décorés grecs et étrusques : technique et
diffusion, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">in </i>:
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">L'artisanat
en Grèce ancienne. Les productions, les diffusions, Coll.
EFA-MOM, Lyon, 10-11
déc. 1998</i>, Lille, Univ. Lille 3, 127-143, 14 fig.<b
style="mso-bidi-font-weight:
normal"><o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<br>
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195.05pt 231.05pt 267.05pt 303.05pt 339.05pt 375.05pt 411.05pt
447.05pt">No pdf, soory ; but I can send papers...<br>
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<br>
<br>
Le 17/04/2014 20:10, Kordula Gostencnik a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAFcjJ0ZJ9MW48YT+-do6oNNoCR1UdAht2gpxZ8CEbm9FMAh=QQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Context-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>... and the easiest way to dye textiles green is to put
sour milk into a copper vessel along with the textile - I
think the effect is also due to the chemical reaction which
produces verdigris, but I am completely unfamiliar with this
science. This is one of the rare methods of direct dyeing
where no mordant is necessary for the textiles. We tried it
out with cloth and it is astonishing how it works. John Peter
Wild refers to it in his book "Textile produciton in the
north-western Roman provinces" - sorry I can't give the full
reference. Might this also work with bones?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Sincerly</div>
<div>Kordula</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2014-04-17 17:07 GMT+02:00 SA O'Connor
<span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:S.Oconnor@bradford.ac.uk" target="_blank">S.Oconnor@bradford.ac.uk</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">Dear All,<br>
<br>
I agree this is a fascinating topic and we aught to also
consider traces of gilding and adhesives, and dressings such
as waxes and oils.<br>
<br>
I am familiar with copper acetate discolouration in
paintings and works of art on paper and this goes very brown
with time. I don't think this is the case on this bone
buckle. If the colour were due to the deterioration over
time of copper acetate then I would have expected the
changes to be seen generally over the surface of the object
and not restricted to specific features. The brown appears
to be due to the underlying colour variation in the bone -
the stripe on the back, for instance, is an area of unworked
endosteal surface of the longbone from which the buckle is
cut. Perhaps the colour differences are due to the staining
reacting with variable amounts of fatty material in the
surface of the worked and unworked bone? I would be
interested to hear anyone's thoughts on this.<br>
<br>
On the bone and ivory objects I have examined in detail the
green colouration is definitely a staining and not the
application of a particulate pigment in a medium. Perhaps
copper acetate is involved at some stage in the process of
corroding the copper but once the copper is in solution it
has to combines with the mineral component of the bone to
produce a permanent staining. The result is a stain that
seems to have more the colour and stability of malacite (or
at least something chemically similar to this) than copper
acetate.<br>
<br>
I do not know what luck I will have in chasing the thesis I
mentioned but I will try to do this after Easter. I do also
have some copies of recent historic publications that detail
bone staining processes that I have always meant to read and
I will try to find time to look at these too, but probably
not until mid May.<br>
<br>
Are you aware of the work that has been going on at the
British Museum to look for traces of colour on the Lewis
Chessmen? I am not sure how far they have got with this but
I do know some of the people involved.<br>
<br>
All the best,<br>
<br>
Sonia<br>
<br>
Quoting Vincent Cattersel <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vincent.cattersel@gmail.com" target="_blank">vincent.cattersel@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<div>
Dear David and Sonia,<br>
<br>
the rivets were bronze so the green colouration could
well be coming from<br>
the rivets' oxidation. However this staining was limited
to the surface<br>
(surface of the cortical bone) and not in sub-surface
layers. Therefore we<br>
assume that the colouration was done deliberately.<br>
Based on our data, a relationship with a certain recipe
wasn't possible but<br>
</div>
we think it was a copper based product (so called
*verdigris*, basic copper
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
acetate, Cu(OH)2 · (CH3COO)2 · 5 H2O).<br>
<br>
You also mention the use of urine, which was
frequently used for producing<br>
metal salt based pigments. The urine itself induces
the corrosion on the<br>
copper sample. After it is corroded, one can scratch
of the crystals, grind<br>
them to the desired particle size, add a medium (e.g.
oil, wax) et voilà, a<br>
green pigment. See these two pictures from an
experiment I have done in<br>
2003.<br>
[image: Inline images 2] [image: Inline images 1]<br>
On the first picture you can see small slabs of copper
hanging above<br>
vinegar (I could have well replaced the vinegar with
urine). There should<br>
be no contact between the copper slabs and the fluid.
The vapours of the<br>
fluid induces the corrosion process. On the second
picture you can see the<br>
actual scrapings of the copper acetate crystals, which
are ready to use.<br>
One often read in historical recipes that the jar
should be buried in horse<br>
dong. The bacterial activity in the latter produces
heat (sometimes +70°<br>
Celcius) and therefore it significantly increases the
corrosion process and<br>
reduces the production time.<br>
<br>
<br>
Sonia:<br>
the object you have mailed also has the same green
colouration as I would<br>
expect from an object coloured with a basic copper
acetate based pigment.<br>
What draws my attention is the brownish decolouration
on both sides of that<br>
object. Copper acetate is quite unstable and when
exposed to light and a<br>
'high degree of humidity' it turns into the more
stable molecule copper<br>
oxide, which is brown to black.<br>
<br>
<br>
Yours,<br>
Vincent Cattersel<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 17 April 2014 13:36, SA O'Connor <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:S.Oconnor@bradford.ac.uk"
target="_blank">S.Oconnor@bradford.ac.uk</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
Dear David,<br>
<br>
Back in the 1980s, when I was at the York
Archaeological Trust we were<br>
involved in providing green stained objects for an
undergraduate<br>
dissertation by a University of Bradford,
Archaeological Sciences, student<br>
(surname of Edwards, I think) to look at exactly
this question. Some<br>
objects seemed to be accidentally stained (often
very patchy) whilst others<br>
were intensely and evenly stained and were
considered to be deliberately<br>
coloured. All were analysed by XRF and copper/bronze
proved to be the basis<br>
of all the staining solutions used.<br>
<br>
In my more recent work I have documented historical
pieces, such selected<br>
elements of bone and antler in box and gun inlays
and bone and ivory<br>
cutlery handles(and working waste from cutlers) that
are undeniably<br>
deliberately stained.<br>
<br>
I attach a low resolution image an archaeological
example, a buckle at the<br>
Yorkshire Museum that I am convinced is deliberately
stained in this way.<br>
<br>
All the best,<br>
<br>
Sonia<br>
<br>
Quoting David Constantine <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dkconstantine@btinternet.com"
target="_blank">dkconstantine@btinternet.com</a>>:<br>
<br>
I am aware that copper (or alloys) is often cited
as a green dye for<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
(such as in MacGregor 1985), but I believe there
is also recipes from the<br>
Mappae Clavicula that use weld, urine and "lulax"
to dye bone green, so I<br>
was curious to see if any chemical analysis has
been performed to determine<br>
how the green has been achieved.<br>
<br>
Looking at the zoomed images, I believe the rivets
are iron.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
David Constantine<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
From: Kordula Gostencnik <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kgosten@gmail.com" target="_blank">kgosten@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: "Mailing list for archaeologists of the
research group for the study<br>
of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and
horn." <<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bonetools@listserv.niif.hu"
target="_blank">bonetools@listserv.niif.hu</a>><br>
Sent: Wednesday, 16 April 2014, 20:21<br>
Subject: Re: [Bonetools] Colouring bone<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Green stains are normally caused by bronze objects
or copper alloy scrap<br>
associated with worked bones in the soil. Are the
rivets all made from iron<br>
or also from bronze?<br>
<br>
Kordula<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
2014-04-16 17:15 GMT+02:00 Dave Constantine <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dkconstantine@btinternet.com"
target="_blank">dkconstantine@btinternet.com</a><br>
>:<br>
<br>
Thank you all for your replies.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<br>
Vincent, the green stained comb you linked is
rather interesting. Do you<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
know what the green pigment is? Also, looking at
the images, it seems<br>
that it is<br>
no more than a surface colourant with little
penetration, is this correct?<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<br>
Thank you for your suggestion of minium, I was
at a loss about what it<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
could be. It is not a fresh find, it was
originally discovered in the<br>
1960s (or<br>
possibly 1970s) and mounted on a card for display.
To the best of my<br>
knowledge<br>
though, the colouring is original, though it is
possible that the surface<br>
was<br>
also coloured and this has simply failed to
survive.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<br>
I have Arthur MacGregor’s book, and very useful
it is too on the matter<br>
of<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
colouring.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
David Constantine<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: Vincent Cattersel<br>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 2:03 PM<br>
To: Mailing list for archaeologists of the<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
research group for the study of object and waste
of bone, antler. ivory<br>
and<br>
horn.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
Subject: Re: [Bonetools] Colouring bone<br>
Dear all,<br>
<br>
this is a first where I might be able to
contribute to this group, but<br>
I'm<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
happy to do so:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<br>
In 2008 I have conserved and restored 8
bone/antler combs from the<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
Merovingian period at the Royal Institute for
Cultural Heritage (Brussels,<br>
Belgium). These combs are currently preserved at
the Royal Museums of Art<br>
and<br>
History in Brussels, Belgium.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
Here you can find pictures of a few of them
(click on the pictures to<br>
get a<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
zoomable high resolution image):<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://balat.kikirpa.be/photo.php?path=X026849&objnr=20042741"
target="_blank">http://balat.kikirpa.be/photo.php?path=X026849&objnr=20042741</a><br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://balat.kikirpa.be/photo.php?path=X035781&objnr=20052916"
target="_blank">http://balat.kikirpa.be/photo.php?path=X035781&objnr=20052916</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
(green staining on the surface, carbon black in
the circular<br>
motives)<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://balat.kikirpa.be/photo.php?path=X026845&objnr=20052917"
target="_blank">http://balat.kikirpa.be/photo.php?path=X026845&objnr=20052917</a><br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://balat.kikirpa.be/photo.php?path=X038388&objnr=20052919"
target="_blank">http://balat.kikirpa.be/photo.php?path=X038388&objnr=20052919</a><br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://balat.kikirpa.be/photo.php?path=X035783&objnr=20052922"
target="_blank">http://balat.kikirpa.be/photo.php?path=X035783&objnr=20052922</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Some of these where coloured and stained with
green and carbon black. We<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
used µ-XRF, µ-RAMAN and SEM(-EDX) to analyse the
stains and the carbon<br>
black<br>
particles.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<br>
So staining and colouring isn't that uncommon,
as you probably already<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
know.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<br>
When I look at the picture, I can see that the
red is slightly orange,<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
which makes me think about the pigment lead red
(also called 'minium' or<br>
lead<br>
tetra-oxide, Pb3O4). This isn't a<br>
surprise since it is one of the oldest known vivid
red pigments (except<br>
for some<br>
iron oxide pigments derived from hematite and red
earth or cinnabar (HgS),<br>
however they all are true 'reddish' in colour and
lack the hint of<br>
orange).<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<br>
<br>
Some simple identification techniques for minium
are:<br>
* Ultraviolet fluorescence (if minium,
it minium it should show<br>
a dark red colouration);<br>
<br>
* Infrared False Color which should
gives the observed minium a<br>
yellow-brown colour. Analytical techniques:<br>
<br>
In case you have the oppurtunity to<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
analyse it with RAMAN, you can find a reference
spectrum here.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
For<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
a reference spectrum of minium using XRF: here.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<br>
<br>
<br>
Another thing is the question whether this die
was excavated and brought<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
directly to your collection or was it once part of
a (private)collection<br>
and<br>
excavated a long time ago.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
This is an important question since it could
provide an answer to whether<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
or not this colouration is original.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
I know from my experiences with the conservation
of precious ivory<br>
objects<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
that they are often repainted (repolychromed)
throughout time, even<br>
though their<br>
iconography or typology gives us reasons to
believe that they originally<br>
weren't<br>
polychromed or not polychromed in such manner as
they are today.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<br>
To get back on the minium pigment, more
information can be found in:<br>
* Eastaugh, N., Walsh, V., Chaplin, T.,
& Siddall, R. (2008).<br>
Pigment Compendium - A Dictionary and Optical
Microscopy of Historical<br>
Pigments. Oxford: Butterworth-Heinemann.<br>
<br>
* Feller, R. L., Gettens, R. J., &
Chase, W. T. (1993).<br>
Vermilion and Cinnabar. In R. Ashok, Artists'
Pigments - A Handbook of<br>
Their History and Characteristics. (Vol. II,
pp. 159-182).<br>
Washington-London: National Gallery of Art.<br>
<br>
<br>
Another book I can recommend on staining and
colouring bone materials is:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
McGregor. A. (1985) Bone, Antler, Ivory &
Horn: The Technology of Skeletal<br>
Materials Since the Roman Period.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
I don't have it here with me for the moment, but
as you wish, I can<br>
always<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
go through it to find more information on red
staining or colouring.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<br>
Yours,<br>
<br>
Vincent Cattersel<br>
<br>
Drs.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
VINCENT CATTERSEL<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
Doctoral researcher<br>
Universiteit<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
Antwerpen / University of Antwerp<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
Faculteit<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
Ontwerpwetenschappen / Faculty of Design Sciences<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
Opleiding<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
conservatie-restauratie / Conservation Studies<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
Blindestraat<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
9<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
B-2000<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
Antwerpen<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
T +32 3 213 71<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
34 | F <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B32%203%20213%2071%2035"
target="_blank" value="+3232137135">+32 3 213 71
35</a><br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vincent.cattersel@uantwerpen.be"
target="_blank">vincent.cattersel@uantwerpen.be</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.uantwerpen.be"
target="_blank">www.uantwerpen.be</a><br>
<br>
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<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 15 April 2014 09:06, David Constantine <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dkconstantine@btinternet.com"
target="_blank">dkconstantine@btinternet.com</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
Hello All,<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<br>
Attached is an image of a (probably) Saxon
bone/antler die. As can be<br>
seen, there is reddish pigmentation in the
decoration. I have looked<br>
around for similar colouring and with the
exception of a "lucet" from<br>
London I cannot seem to find anything
similar, just totally stained<br>
objects e.g. the belt buckle from York. Does
anyone here know of any Early<br>
Medieval dated bone artefacts that are either
entirely stained/dyed or<br>
have coloured decoration such as this?<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
Constantine<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
François POPLIN
Directeur honoraire de l’UMR 7209 Archéozoologie, Archébotanique : sociétés, pratiques et environnements
Responsable du Séminaire d'Anthropozoologie
Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle
CP 56
Ancien Laboratoire d’Anatomie comparée
55, rue de Buffon
75005 Paris
01 40 79 33 11
fax ------ 33 14
francoispoplin.blogspot.com
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