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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">May I take opportunity for another
question about sturgeons ?<br>
<br>
First, there is no bone in them, but cartilage (they are chondrous
as sharks and rays). The outer skeleton is made of ganoine (excuse
my lack of some adequate terms), wich is more or less as cementum
- not very hard and strong, indeed.<br>
<br>
As the scutes are not joining together, there are lacks in the
"scale" cover, so as sturgeons are not pure fishes, rather outlaws
for Levitic and Deutoronomy. Some carps have the seem feature,
with some very large scales and "skin" inbetweeen ; called "carpe
miroir", "carpe cuir" in french (which terms in english ?). That
should be in the way/embarrassing for "Gefieltefisch". Could
somebobudy tell what is the position of theese carps compared with
theese laws ? <br>
<br>
(In osteaoarcheolopgy, remains of sturgeons are these ganoine
covering pieces.... and otoliths (but I a not sure that theese are
that devlopped). <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Le 15/04/2014 16:08, S O'Connor a écrit :<br>
</div>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dear
Marina and David,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Just
a few more thoughts. I would be very cautious about
ascribing a use to these fish bones. They look very rounded
and ‘worn’ even in-situ in the fin where they clearly have
not been used as a tool or modified by human agency. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
am also dubious about them being used in the consumption of
shell fish having prepared and consumed quantities of both
oysters and mussels in my time! You need a stout knife or a
sharp and robust stone blade for the oyster and an empty
mussel shell makes a perfect pair of ‘tweezers’ with which
to eat the delicate cooked flesh of other mussels. The
sturgeon fin bone would not be useful for either role and is
even too blunt for extracting the cooked flesh from marine
gastropods such as cockles and winkles. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Most
likely the pile of bones found in Hamburg is just residue
from fileting sturgeon. The skin is likely to have been
removed as a piece with the characteristic boney scutes for
processing into leather. Cutting off the fins at the fish
market would make it easier to stack, roll or fold the skin
for transportation from the fish market to the tanners. If
the heads were left on the skins the fin bones would be one
of the few persistent skeletal elements left behind as the
sturgeon has a largely cartilaginous skeleton. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">All
the best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Sonia<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dr
Sonia O'Connor </span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">PhD
FSA FIIC ACR Honorary Visiting Fellow, University of York</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Post-doctoral
Research Fellow<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Archaeological
Sciences<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Division
of AGES, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">University
of Bradford<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Bradford,
West Yorkshire, BD7 1DP, UK<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">tel
01274 23 6498 (office) 5210 (lab)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">fax
01274 23 5210<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US"> Bonetools
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu">mailto:bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:marinaevora@sapo.pt">marinaevora@sapo.pt</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 15 April 2014 14:11<br>
<b>To:</b> Mailing list for archaeologists of the
research group for the study of object and waste of
bone, antler. ivory and horn.<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bonetools] mesolithic artefact<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br>
Thank you David and Sonia for your comments, no wonder I
couldn't find parallels, I was not looking in the right
place.<br>
<br>
David, could you point me to the complete reference of the
page and images you provided?<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Marina<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Quoting
S O'Connor <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:S.Oconnor@bradford.ac.uk">S.Oconnor@bradford.ac.uk</a>>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:6.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">That
looks a pretty close match, for the sturgeon dorsal fin
elements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">See</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://web.pdx.edu/%7Evirginia/white_sturgeon/images/caudal_fin_dorsal.htm">http://web.pdx.edu/~virginia/white_sturgeon/images/caudal_fin_dorsal.htm</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">part
of</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://web.pdx.edu/%7Evirginia/white_sturgeon/white_sturgeon.htm">http://web.pdx.edu/~virginia/white_sturgeon/white_sturgeon.htm</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Sonia</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dr
Sonia O'Connor</span> <span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">PhD
FSA FIIC ACR Honorary Visiting Fellow, University of
York</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Post-doctoral
Research Fellow</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Archaeological
Sciences</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Division
of AGES, </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">University
of Bradford</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Bradford,
West Yorkshire, BD7 1DP, UK</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">tel
01274 23 6498 (office) 5210 (lab)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">fax
01274 23 5210</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">Bonetools [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu">mailto:bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of</b> Dave Constantine<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 15 April 2014 11:28<br>
<b>To:</b> Mailing list for archaeologists of the
research group for the study of object and waste of
bone, antler. ivory and horn.<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bonetools] mesolithic artefact</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Dear
Marina,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Is
it possibly a fish bone? Attached are a couple of
pages discussing the possible use of Sturgeon
bones for eating shellfish and the bones look
rather like yours.<br>
<br>
Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">David
Constantine</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:whitesmoke"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b>
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:marinaevora@sapo.pt"
title="marinaevora@sapo.pt">marinaevora@sapo.pt</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:whitesmoke"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Sent:</span></b>
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Tuesday,
April 15, 2014 11:03 AM</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:whitesmoke"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">To:</span></b>
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bonetools@listserv.niif.hu"
title="bonetools@listserv.niif.hu">Mailing
list for archaeologists of the research
group for the study of object and waste of
bone, antler. ivory and horn.</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:whitesmoke"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Subject:</span></b>
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">[Bonetools]
mesolithic artefact</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Dear
all,<br>
<br>
I'm sending you two pictures of an artefact
recovered from a mesolithic shellmidden site in
Portugal. I believe it is made from mammal bone.
Do you have/ know of similar objects? I have been
searching for parallels and I didn't find it.<br>
Thank you.<br>
<br>
Best,</span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><br>
<span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Marina
Évora</span><br>
<br>
<b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green">P</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black"> </span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:green">Please
consider the impact on the environment before
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
François POPLIN
Directeur honoraire de l’UMR 7209 Archéozoologie, Archébotanique : sociétés, pratiques et environnements
Responsable du Séminaire d'Anthropozoologie
Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle
CP 56
Ancien Laboratoire d’Anatomie comparée
55, rue de Buffon
75005 Paris
01 40 79 33 11
fax ------ 33 14
francoispoplin.blogspot.com
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