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<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US" lang="EN-US">Dear colleagues, last year, on the advice of F. Poplin, a very similar problem (merovingian ivory, see attachments)
has been simply resolved by a </span>
<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />
<st1:metricconverter w:st="on" ProductID="14C"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US" lang="EN-US">14C</span></st1:metricconverter><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US" lang="EN-US">
dating.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US" lang="EN-US">The questions were</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US" lang="EN-US">
1°) first mineral (ie. jurassic sea fossil (rudists) <i>versus </i>ivory, and then 2°) elephant
<i>versus</i> mammoth.</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US" lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US" lang="EN-US"></span> </p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US" lang="EN-US">And the winner is… elephant (see calibration in attachment,
<u>thanks to Sarl Antea Archéologie</u>).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US" lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US" lang="EN-US">Best regards, Olivier.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p> </p>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 13px">
<p class="MsoNormal" align="left"><a name="_MailAutoSig"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><font color="#000000">Olivier PUTELAT</font></span></a></p>
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<div style="DIRECTION: ltr" id="divRpF279836"><font color="#000000" size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>De :</b> bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu [bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu] de la part de François Poplin [poplin@mnhn.fr]<br>
<b>Date d'envoi :</b> lundi 22 avril 2013 11:53<br>
<b>À :</b> Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the study of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn.<br>
<b>Objet :</b> [Bonetools] Fwd: Re: Mammoth tusk as raw material in Roman times?<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div><span></span>
<p style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Bonjour,<br>
</span></p>
<p style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify" class="MsoNormal"><span>je viens donc donner la solution à la question précise : comment distinguer, dans un matériel d'époque antique/romaine d'Europe moyenne (entre Ouest et Est), plutôt méditerranéen
en latitude, s'agissant de la Serbie, </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; LETTER-SPACING: -0.15pt; FONT-SIZE: 14pt">l'éléphant et le mammouth</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; LETTER-SPACING: -0.15pt; FONT-SIZE: 14pt"> sur
une portion de défense (dont la forme n'est pas divulguée) ?</span></p>
<p style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify" class="MsoNormal"><span></span> </p>
<p style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify" class="MsoNormal"><b><span>La réponse est : par le C14, qui donnera 2 000 ans ou moins - ou bien</span></b><span>
<b>10 000 ans ou plus.</b></span></p>
<p style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify" class="MsoNormal"><span></span> </p>
<p style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify" class="MsoNormal"><span>Distinction nette, tranchée ("clear-cut"), beaucoup plus que d'autres. C'est un critère hiérarchiquement supérieur. Il est impérial.</span></p>
<p style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify" class="MsoNormal"><span>En bonne méthode expérimentale, c'est un moyen de contrôle indispensable, ayant pour bon effet aussi bien d'asseoir éventuellement le mammouth que de le rejeter.</span></p>
<p style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify" class="MsoNormal"><span></span> </p>
<p style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify" class="MsoNormal"><span>En élargissant la question aux proboscidiens plus en général, dans l'Ancien Monde, on obtient aussi l'indication des vieux éléphants, comme
<i>meridionalis</i>, et des mastodontes (fournisseurs, dans le Sud-Ouest de la France, de matière pour les turquoises osseuses) : ils sont tous "hors d'âge C14".</span></p>
<p style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify" class="MsoNormal"><span></span> </p>
<p style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify" class="MsoNormal"><span>Il est fait recours en cela à la Biochronologie : la loi paléontologique que l'espèce fossile donne l'âge implique la réciproque que l'âge indique le taxon.</span></p>
<p style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify" class="MsoNormal"><span></span> </p>
<p style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify" class="MsoNormal"><span>Je suis informé du cas de Francfort. C'est à son propos que j'ai demandé à Olivier Putelat de faire dater des objets qu'il a trouvés en fouille dans des sépulture mérovingiennes
de la vallée du Rhin. Je le laisse maintenant dire la suite.</span></p>
<p style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify" class="MsoNormal"><span></span> </p>
<p style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify" class="MsoNormal"><span>Je voudrais profiter de cette occasion pour indiquer que je ne peux pas divulguer tout ce que je sais des ivoires, pour ne pas donner des armes aux faussaires. J'indiquerai
simplement que ce savoir couvre aussi bien la gravure de mammouth sur éclat de défense de mammouth de la Madeleine que le matériel osseux de Glozel, que j'ai eu la chance de pouvoir examiner, que la Vierge à l'Enfant gothique de la Sainte Chapelle à Paris
et qu'une mâchoire d'éléphant actuel trouvée en Nouvelle-Calédonie.</span></p>
PS : excusez-moi de m'exprimer dans ma langue maternelle, c'est celle où je puis être le plus précis.<br>
<br>
Avec mes meilleures, pensées.<br>
<br>
-------- Message original --------
<table class="moz-email-headers-table" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<th valign="baseline" nowrap="" align="right">Sujet: </th>
<td>Re: [Bonetools] Mammoth tusk as raw material in Roman times?</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th valign="baseline" nowrap="" align="right">Date : </th>
<td>Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:44:42 +0200</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th valign="baseline" nowrap="" align="right">De : </th>
<td>François Poplin <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:poplin@mnhn.fr" target="_blank">
<poplin@mnhn.fr></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th valign="baseline" nowrap="" align="right">Pour : </th>
<td>Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the study of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn.
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bonetools@listserv.niif.hu" target="_blank">
<bonetools@listserv.niif.hu></a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
Le 18/04/2013 00:35, Sonja Vukovic a écrit :
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Dear all,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>thank you for the responses.. As Selena told you, it was found within the secure context and there is no doubt in it. As for the identification, I am not versed in it, but I am sure that it was identified professionaly. I will ask Sofija about the photos,
but as it will be published soon, we can forward you the paper..</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But no one answered our original question: <b>Has</b><span><b> anyone ever identified a mammoth tusk as raw material in Roman period</b>?</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
I shall come back to this matter in a couple of days. And I observe too that nobody answered my remark/question :<b> there is a mighty, excellent way to know. Who can tell?<br>
</b><br>
Sincerely.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div><span><br>
</span></div>
<div><span>Thank you,</span></div>
<div><span>greetings from Belgrade,</span></div>
<div><span><br>
</span></div>
<div><span>Sonja</span></div>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div>On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 7:36 PM, S O'Connor <span><<a href="mailto:S.Oconnor@bradford.ac.uk" target="_blank">S.Oconnor@bradford.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote>That is the other Banerjee paper I was asking about. If anyone has got them I would be really grateful for a copy............<br>
<div><br>
Sonia<br>
<br>
Dr Sonia O'Connor PhD FSA FIIC ACR Honorary Visiting Fellow, University of York<br>
Post-doctoral Research Fellow<br>
Archaeological Sciences<br>
Division of AGES,<br>
University of Bradford<br>
Bradford, West Yorkshire, BD7 1DP, UK<br>
<br>
tel <a href="tel:01274%2023%206498" target="_blank">01274 23 6498</a> (office) 5210 (lab)<br>
fax <a href="tel:01274%2023%205210" target="_blank">01274 23 5210</a><br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
</div>
<div>
<div>From: <a href="mailto:bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu" target="_blank">bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu" target="_blank">bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu</a>] On Behalf Of
<a href="mailto:trzaska@lineone.net" target="_blank">trzaska@lineone.net</a><br>
Sent: 17 April 2013 13:15<br>
To: <a href="mailto:bonetools@listserv.niif.hu" target="_blank">bonetools@listserv.niif.hu</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Bonetools] Mammoth tusk as raw material in Roman times?<br>
<br>
This would need to be checked but I think I am right in believing that a merovingian object from Frankfurt Dom was also thought to be mammoth ivory:<br>
<br>
Hampel, A. and Bannerjee, A., 1995<br>
Identifizierung und Differenzierung von Elfenbein am Bespiel des merowingerzeitlichen Grabfundes aus dem Frankfurter Dom, Archäologisches Korrespondenzblatt 25, 143-7<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
>From a secure context as well I think, but is it mammoth ?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Ian Riddler<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
>----Original Message----<br>
<br>
>From: <a href="mailto:selenavitezovic@gmail.com" target="_blank">selenavitezovic@gmail.com</a><br>
<br>
>Date: 17/04/2013 12:42<br>
<br>
>To: "Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the study of<br>
<br>
> object and waste of bone,<br>
<br>
> antler. ivory and horn."<<a href="mailto:bonetools@listserv.niif.hu" target="_blank">bonetools@listserv.niif.hu</a>><br>
<br>
>Subj: Re: [Bonetools] Mammoth tusk as raw material in Roman times?<br>
<br>
><br>
<br>
>Hello, everyone,<br>
<br>
><br>
<br>
>The item is from the secured context, it was discovered during the<br>
<br>
>excavations conducted by Sofija Petković herself.<br>
<br>
>As to the photos, it must be checked with Sofija first.<br>
<br>
>L'objet était trouvé pendant les fouilles qui était menée par Sofija<br>
<br>
>Petković. Il faut verifié avec Sofija pour les photos.<br>
<br>
><br>
<br>
>best regards, Selena<br>
<br>
><br>
<br>
><br>
<br>
>On 17 April 2013 12:31, S O'Connor <<a href="mailto:S.Oconnor@bradford.ac.uk" target="_blank">S.Oconnor@bradford.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
><br>
<br>
>> Dear Sonja,<br>
<br>
>><br>
<br>
>> As François says, it would be useful to know the context for the object. Is<br>
<br>
>> it possible for us to see some photographs of the fragment?<br>
<br>
>><br>
<br>
>> Thanks,<br>
<br>
>><br>
<br>
>> Sonia<br>
<br>
>><br>
<br>
>> Dr Sonia O'Connor PhD FSA FIIC ACR Honorary Visiting Fellow, University of<br>
<br>
>> York<br>
<br>
>> Post-doctoral Research Fellow<br>
<br>
>> Archaeological Sciences<br>
<br>
>> Division of AGES,<br>
<br>
>> University of Bradford<br>
<br>
>> Bradford, West Yorkshire, BD7 1DP, UK<br>
<br>
>><br>
<br>
>> tel <a href="tel:01274%2023%206498" target="_blank">01274 23 6498</a> (office) 5210 (lab)<br>
<br>
>> fax <a href="tel:01274%2023%205210" target="_blank">01274 23 5210</a><br>
<br>
>><br>
<br>
>><br>
<br>
>> -----Original Message-----<br>
<br>
>> From: <a href="mailto:bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu" target="_blank">bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu</a><br>
<br>
>> [mailto:<a href="mailto:bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu" target="_blank">bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu</a>] On Behalf Of François Poplin<br>
<br>
>> Sent: 17 April 2013 09:11<br>
<br>
>> To: <a href="mailto:bonetools@listserv.niif.hu" target="_blank">bonetools@listserv.niif.hu</a><br>
<br>
>> Subject: Re: [Bonetools] Mammoth tusk as raw material in Roman times?<br>
<br>
>><br>
<br>
>> Dear SA O'Connor<br>
<br>
>><br>
<br>
>> 1°) I am affraid, but the fact that has not been answered my question "Has<br>
<br>
>> it been found in a genuine and secure archaelogical excavation ?"<br>
<br>
>> sounds bad,<br>
<br>
>><br>
<br>
>> 2°) in that very case, there is a mighty, excellent way to know. Who can<br>
<br>
>> tell ? (Olivier please, keep quite for some days).<br>
<br>
>><br>
<br>
>> Your's.<br>
<br>
>><br>
<br>
>> Le 16/04/2013 14:32, SA O'Connor a écrit :<br>
<br>
>> > Dear Sonja,<br>
<br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> > I would be really interested in knowing the basis of this<br>
<br>
>> > identification. If this is based on Schreger angle measurements, it<br>
<br>
>> > may not be possible to differentiate mammoth from extant elephant with<br>
<br>
>> > any confidence from a fragment.<br>
<br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> > Only the outer Schreger angles are diagnostic, i.e. those in the<br>
<br>
>> > outermost layers of the dentine, close to the cementum covering of the<br>
<br>
>> > tusk. Towards the centre of a tusk the angles become progressively<br>
<br>
>> > smaller and similar in character whether the tusk is from an extant<br>
<br>
>> > and extinct proboscidean species. So, even if the Schreger angles<br>
<br>
>> > average less than 100 or even 90 degrees, unless traces of the<br>
<br>
>> > cementum are visible the fragment might come from any position in the<br>
<br>
>> > tusk and could be elephant or mammoth.<br>
<br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> > All the best,<br>
<br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> > Sonia<br>
<br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> > kQuoting Sonja Vukovic <<a href="mailto:sonja.vukovic@gmail.com" target="_blank">sonja.vukovic@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
<br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> >> Dear colleagues,<br>
<br>
>> >><br>
<br>
>> >> I am forwarding you a query from our colleague, Dr Sofija Petkovic<br>
<br>
>> >> from the Institute of Archaeology in Belgrade. She is analysing an<br>
<br>
>> >> object made of the mammoth tusk, found in Romuliana (Serbia), that<br>
<br>
>> >> dates back to the Roman period. The object is fragmented and it<br>
<br>
>> >> represents an elephant's head done in a relief. The function of this<br>
<br>
>> >> item is unclear, but it was probably an application for some kind of<br>
<br>
>> >> furniture or sarcophagi, etc..<br>
<br>
>> >><br>
<br>
>> >> She is wondering weather anyone has ever identified a mammoth tusk as<br>
<br>
>> >> raw material in Roman period?!<br>
<br>
>> >><br>
<br>
>> >> Anyway, she is going to publish this object soon!<br>
<br>
>> >><br>
<br>
>> >> Thank you very much,<br>
<br>
>> >> best wishes,<br>
<br>
>> >><br>
<br>
>> >> Sonja<br>
<br>
>> >><br>
<br>
>> >> --<br>
<br>
>> >> Sonja Vukovic<br>
<br>
>> >> Laboratory for bioarchaeology<br>
<br>
>> >> Faculty of Philosophy<br>
<br>
>> >> University of Belgrade<br>
<br>
>> >> Serbia<br>
<br>
>> >><br>
<br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
>> > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.<br>
<br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> > _______________________________________________<br>
<br>
>> > Bonetools mailing list<br>
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>> > <a href="mailto:Bonetools@listserv.niif.hu" target="_blank">Bonetools@listserv.niif.hu</a><br>
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https://listserv.niif.hu/mailman/listinfo/bonetools</a><br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> François POPLIN<br>
>><br>
>> Directeur honoraire de l’UMR 7209 Archéozoologie, Archébotanique :<br>
>> sociétés,<br>
>> pratiques et environnements<br>
>><br>
>> Responsable du Séminaire d'Anthropozoologie<br>
>><br>
>> Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle<br>
>> CP 56<br>
>> Ancien Laboratoire d’Anatomie comparée<br>
>> 55, rue de Buffon<br>
>> 75005 Paris<br>
>> 01 40 79 33 11<br>
>> fax ------ 33 14<br>
>><br>
>> <a href="http://francoispoplin.blogspot.com" target="_blank">francoispoplin.blogspot.com</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
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-- <br>
<div>Sonja Vukovic</div>
<div>Laboratory for bioarchaeology</div>
<div>Faculty of Philosophy </div>
<div>University of Belgrade </div>
<div>Serbia</div>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
François POPLIN
Directeur honoraire de l’UMR 7209 Archéozoologie, Archébotanique : sociétés, pratiques et environnements
Responsable du Séminaire d'Anthropozoologie
Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle
CP 56
Ancien Laboratoire d’Anatomie comparée
55, rue de Buffon
75005 Paris
01 40 79 33 11
fax ------ 33 14
francoispoplin.blogspot.com
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