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<span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Times New
Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt"><o:p></o:p></span>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify;"><span
style="font-size: 14pt;">Bonjour,<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;mso-hyphenate:none"><span
style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: "Times New
Roman"; letter-spacing: -0.15pt;">je viens donc donner la
solution à la question précise : comment distinguer, dans un
matériel d'époque antique/romaine d'Europe moyenne (entre Ouest
et Est), plutôt méditerranéen en latitude, s'agissant de la
Serbie, </span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt">l'éléphant
et le mammouth</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt">
sur une portion de défense (dont la forme n'est pas divulguée)
?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;mso-hyphenate:none"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Times New
Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;mso-hyphenate:none"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Times New
Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt">La réponse est : par le
C14, qui donnera 2 000 ans ou moins - ou bien</span></b><span
style="font-size: 14.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt"> <b>10 000 ans ou plus.</b><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;mso-hyphenate:none"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Times New
Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;mso-hyphenate:none"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Times New
Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt">Distinction nette, tranchée
("clear-cut"), beaucoup plus que d'autres. C'est un critère
hiérarchiquement supérieur. Il est impérial.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;mso-hyphenate:none"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Times New
Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt">En bonne méthode
expérimentale, c'est un moyen de contrôle indispensable, ayant
pour bon effet aussi bien d'asseoir éventuellement le mammouth
que de le rejeter.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;mso-hyphenate:none"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Times New
Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;mso-hyphenate:none"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Times New
Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt">En élargissant la question
aux proboscidiens plus en général, dans l'Ancien Monde, on
obtient aussi l'indication des vieux éléphants, comme <i>meridionalis</i>,
et des mastodontes (fournisseurs, dans le Sud-Ouest de la
France, de matière pour les turquoises osseuses) : ils sont tous
"hors d'âge C14".<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;mso-hyphenate:none"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Times New
Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;mso-hyphenate:none"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Times New
Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt">Il est fait recours en cela à
la Biochronologie : la loi paléontologique que l'espèce fossile
donne l'âge implique la réciproque que l'âge indique le taxon.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;mso-hyphenate:none"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Times New
Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;mso-hyphenate:none"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Times New
Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt">Je suis informé du cas de
Francfort. C'est à son propos que j'ai demandé à Olivier Putelat
de faire dater des objets qu'il a trouvés en fouille dans des
sépulture mérovingiennes de la vallée du Rhin. Je le laisse
maintenant dire la suite.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;mso-hyphenate:none"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Times New
Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;mso-hyphenate:none"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Times New
Roman";letter-spacing:-.15pt">Je voudrais profiter de cette
occasion pour indiquer que je ne peux pas divulguer tout ce que
je sais des ivoires, pour ne pas donner des armes aux
faussaires. J'indiquerai simplement que ce savoir couvre aussi
bien la gravure de mammouth sur éclat de défense de mammouth de
la Madeleine que le matériel osseux de Glozel, que j'ai eu la
chance de pouvoir examiner, que la Vierge à l'Enfant gothique de
la Sainte Chapelle à Paris et qu'une mâchoire d'éléphant actuel
trouvée en Nouvelle-Calédonie.</span></p>
PS : excusez-moi de m'exprimer dans ma langue maternelle, c'est
celle où je puis être le plus précis.<br>
<br>
Avec mes meilleures, pensées.<br>
<br>
-------- Message original --------
<table class="moz-email-headers-table" border="0" cellpadding="0"
cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">Sujet: </th>
<td>Re: [Bonetools] Mammoth tusk as raw material in Roman
times?</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">Date : </th>
<td>Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:44:42 +0200</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">De : </th>
<td>François Poplin <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:poplin@mnhn.fr"><poplin@mnhn.fr></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">Pour : </th>
<td>Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for
the study of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and
horn. <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bonetools@listserv.niif.hu"><bonetools@listserv.niif.hu></a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
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<br>
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http-equiv="Content-Type">
Le 18/04/2013 00:35, Sonja Vukovic a écrit :
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABOXu7k7YMAwU6LS=+5CBy48_7uYtLWkXP3jU=YsBs+ywNKPTQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Context-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div>Dear all,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>thank you for the responses.. As Selena told you, it was
found within the secure context and there is no doubt in it.
As for the identification, I am not versed in it, but I am
sure that it was identified professionaly. I will ask Sofija
about the photos, but as it will be published soon, we can
forward you the paper..</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But no one answered our original question: <b>Has</b><span><b> anyone
ever identified a mammoth tusk as raw material in Roman
period</b>?</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
I shall come back to this matter in a couple of days. And I observe
too that nobody answered my remark/question :<b> there is a mighty,
excellent way to know. Who can tell?<br>
</b> <br>
Sincerely.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABOXu7k7YMAwU6LS=+5CBy48_7uYtLWkXP3jU=YsBs+ywNKPTQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div>
<div><span><br>
</span></div>
<div><span>Thank you,</span></div>
<div><span>greetings from Belgrade,</span></div>
<div><span><br>
</span></div>
<div><span>Sonja</span></div>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 7:36 PM, S O'Connor <span><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:S.Oconnor@bradford.ac.uk">S.Oconnor@bradford.ac.uk</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote> That is the other Banerjee paper I was asking
about. If anyone has got them I would be really grateful
for a copy............<br>
<div><br>
Sonia<br>
<br>
Dr Sonia O'Connor PhD FSA FIIC ACR Honorary Visiting
Fellow, University of York<br>
Post-doctoral Research Fellow<br>
Archaeological Sciences<br>
Division of AGES,<br>
University of Bradford<br>
Bradford, West Yorkshire, BD7 1DP, UK<br>
<br>
tel <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:01274%2023%206498">01274 23 6498</a> (office)
5210 (lab)<br>
fax <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:01274%2023%205210">01274 23 5210</a><br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
</div>
<div>
<div>From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu">bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu">bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu</a>]
On Behalf Of <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:trzaska@lineone.net">trzaska@lineone.net</a><br>
Sent: 17 April 2013 13:15<br>
To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bonetools@listserv.niif.hu">bonetools@listserv.niif.hu</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Bonetools] Mammoth tusk as raw material in
Roman times?<br>
<br>
This would need to be checked but I think I am right in
believing that a merovingian object from Frankfurt Dom
was also thought to be mammoth ivory:<br>
<br>
Hampel, A. and Bannerjee, A., 1995<br>
Identifizierung und Differenzierung von Elfenbein am
Bespiel des merowingerzeitlichen Grabfundes aus dem
Frankfurter Dom, Archäologisches Korrespondenzblatt 25,
143-7<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
>From a secure context as well I think, but is it
mammoth ?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Ian Riddler<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
>----Original Message----<br>
<br>
>From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:selenavitezovic@gmail.com">selenavitezovic@gmail.com</a><br>
<br>
>Date: 17/04/2013 12:42<br>
<br>
>To: "Mailing list for archaeologists of the research
group for the study of<br>
<br>
> object and waste of bone,<br>
<br>
> antler. ivory and horn."<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bonetools@listserv.niif.hu">bonetools@listserv.niif.hu</a>><br>
<br>
>Subj: Re: [Bonetools] Mammoth tusk as raw material
in Roman times?<br>
<br>
><br>
<br>
>Hello, everyone,<br>
<br>
><br>
<br>
>The item is from the secured context, it was
discovered during the<br>
<br>
>excavations conducted by Sofija Petković herself.<br>
<br>
>As to the photos, it must be checked with Sofija
first.<br>
<br>
>L'objet était trouvé pendant les fouilles qui était
menée par Sofija<br>
<br>
>Petković. Il faut verifié avec Sofija pour les
photos.<br>
<br>
><br>
<br>
>best regards, Selena<br>
<br>
><br>
<br>
><br>
<br>
>On 17 April 2013 12:31, S O'Connor <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:S.Oconnor@bradford.ac.uk">S.Oconnor@bradford.ac.uk</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
><br>
<br>
>> Dear Sonja,<br>
<br>
>><br>
<br>
>> As François says, it would be useful to know
the context for the object. Is<br>
<br>
>> it possible for us to see some photographs of
the fragment?<br>
<br>
>><br>
<br>
>> Thanks,<br>
<br>
>><br>
<br>
>> Sonia<br>
<br>
>><br>
<br>
>> Dr Sonia O'Connor PhD FSA FIIC ACR Honorary
Visiting Fellow, University of<br>
<br>
>> York<br>
<br>
>> Post-doctoral Research Fellow<br>
<br>
>> Archaeological Sciences<br>
<br>
>> Division of AGES,<br>
<br>
>> University of Bradford<br>
<br>
>> Bradford, West Yorkshire, BD7 1DP, UK<br>
<br>
>><br>
<br>
>> tel <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:01274%2023%206498">01274 23 6498</a>
(office) 5210 (lab)<br>
<br>
>> fax <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:01274%2023%205210">01274 23 5210</a><br>
<br>
>><br>
<br>
>><br>
<br>
>> -----Original Message-----<br>
<br>
>> From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu">bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu</a><br>
<br>
>> [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu">bonetools-bounces@listserv.niif.hu</a>]
On Behalf Of François Poplin<br>
<br>
>> Sent: 17 April 2013 09:11<br>
<br>
>> To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bonetools@listserv.niif.hu">bonetools@listserv.niif.hu</a><br>
<br>
>> Subject: Re: [Bonetools] Mammoth tusk as raw
material in Roman times?<br>
<br>
>><br>
<br>
>> Dear SA O'Connor<br>
<br>
>><br>
<br>
>> 1°) I am affraid, but the fact that has not
been answered my question "Has<br>
<br>
>> it been found in a genuine and secure
archaelogical excavation ?"<br>
<br>
>> sounds bad,<br>
<br>
>><br>
<br>
>> 2°) in that very case, there is a mighty,
excellent way to know. Who can<br>
<br>
>> tell ? (Olivier please, keep quite for some
days).<br>
<br>
>><br>
<br>
>> Your's.<br>
<br>
>><br>
<br>
>> Le 16/04/2013 14:32, SA O'Connor a écrit :<br>
<br>
>> > Dear Sonja,<br>
<br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> > I would be really interested in knowing
the basis of this<br>
<br>
>> > identification. If this is based on
Schreger angle measurements, it<br>
<br>
>> > may not be possible to differentiate
mammoth from extant elephant with<br>
<br>
>> > any confidence from a fragment.<br>
<br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> > Only the outer Schreger angles are
diagnostic, i.e. those in the<br>
<br>
>> > outermost layers of the dentine, close to
the cementum covering of the<br>
<br>
>> > tusk. Towards the centre of a tusk the
angles become progressively<br>
<br>
>> > smaller and similar in character whether
the tusk is from an extant<br>
<br>
>> > and extinct proboscidean species. So, even
if the Schreger angles<br>
<br>
>> > average less than 100 or even 90 degrees,
unless traces of the<br>
<br>
>> > cementum are visible the fragment might
come from any position in the<br>
<br>
>> > tusk and could be elephant or mammoth.<br>
<br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> > All the best,<br>
<br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> > Sonia<br>
<br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> > kQuoting Sonja Vukovic <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sonja.vukovic@gmail.com">sonja.vukovic@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
<br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> >> Dear colleagues,<br>
<br>
>> >><br>
<br>
>> >> I am forwarding you a query from our
colleague, Dr Sofija Petkovic<br>
<br>
>> >> from the Institute of Archaeology in
Belgrade. She is analysing an<br>
<br>
>> >> object made of the mammoth tusk, found
in Romuliana (Serbia), that<br>
<br>
>> >> dates back to the Roman period. The
object is fragmented and it<br>
<br>
>> >> represents an elephant's head done in
a relief. The function of this<br>
<br>
>> >> item is unclear, but it was probably
an application for some kind of<br>
<br>
>> >> furniture or sarcophagi, etc..<br>
<br>
>> >><br>
<br>
>> >> She is wondering weather anyone has
ever identified a mammoth tusk as<br>
<br>
>> >> raw material in Roman period?!<br>
<br>
>> >><br>
<br>
>> >> Anyway, she is going to publish this
object soon!<br>
<br>
>> >><br>
<br>
>> >> Thank you very much,<br>
<br>
>> >> best wishes,<br>
<br>
>> >><br>
<br>
>> >> Sonja<br>
<br>
>> >><br>
<br>
>> >> --<br>
<br>
>> >> Sonja Vukovic<br>
<br>
>> >> Laboratory for bioarchaeology<br>
<br>
>> >> Faculty of Philosophy<br>
<br>
>> >> University of Belgrade<br>
<br>
>> >> Serbia<br>
<br>
>> >><br>
<br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> >
----------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
>> > This message was sent using IMP, the
Internet Messaging Program.<br>
<br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> >
_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
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<br>
>> > <a moz-do-not-send="true"
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>> > <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://listserv.niif.hu/mailman/listinfo/bonetools">https://listserv.niif.hu/mailman/listinfo/bonetools</a><br>
>> ><br>
<br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> François POPLIN<br>
>><br>
>> Directeur honoraire de l’UMR 7209
Archéozoologie, Archébotanique :<br>
>> sociétés,<br>
>> pratiques et environnements<br>
>><br>
>> Responsable du Séminaire d'Anthropozoologie<br>
>><br>
>> Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle<br>
>> CP 56<br>
>> Ancien Laboratoire d’Anatomie comparée<br>
>> 55, rue de Buffon<br>
>> 75005 Paris<br>
>> 01 40 79 33 11<br>
>> fax ------ 33 14<br>
>><br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://francoispoplin.blogspot.com">francoispoplin.blogspot.com</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
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</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div>Sonja Vukovic</div>
<div>Laboratory for bioarchaeology</div>
<div>Faculty of Philosophy </div>
<div>University of Belgrade </div>
<div>Serbia</div>
</div>
<br>
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François POPLIN
Directeur honoraire de l’UMR 7209 Archéozoologie, Archébotanique : sociétés, pratiques et environnements
Responsable du Séminaire d'Anthropozoologie
Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle
CP 56
Ancien Laboratoire d’Anatomie comparée
55, rue de Buffon
75005 Paris
01 40 79 33 11
fax ------ 33 14
francoispoplin.blogspot.com
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