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Le 27/03/2013 10:56, Marta Moreno García a écrit :
<blockquote cite="mid:5152C23B.2060408@cchs.csic.es" type="cite">
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<div>Dear Dr Poplin and other members of the list, <br>
<br>
I am writing to you in relation to the comment enclosed below
about "<span>an example of spacer made of vulture ulna</span>"
mentioned in pg 84 of a paper I signed with Simon Davis. In any
part of that paper we refer to the possibility of that piece of
bone been a spacer.</div>
</blockquote>
Excuse me, I don't understand very well this passage and the other,
two lines further : did you allready speak/:write of spacer (if yes,
were exactly ?, I did not read the whole text) or is it new for you
?<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:5152C23B.2060408@cchs.csic.es" type="cite">
<div>I have several publications on similar objects, all from the
Iberian Peninsula and dated to the Islamic period (10th-12th
AD), you may be aware of (you can download them from my
academia.edu page) and in none of them that possibility has ever
been considered.</div>
</blockquote>
the other passage<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:5152C23B.2060408@cchs.csic.es" type="cite">
<div> Initially most of these objects were catalogued by the
archaeologists as flutes or wind instruments. The morphology of
the holes and their variation in the different examples we have
examined call for other function. In fact we are more inclined
to them being part of a cordophone (string instrument). Also I
would like to point out that the illustration shown in the paper
enclosed by Poplin belongs to a fragment of the original object.
<br>
Finally, I would like to add that so far we have not identified
any of these objects nor any of the Iberian aerophones
manufactured on avian ulnae as made from <span><i>Gypaetus
barbatus. </i></span>The morphological and metrical data
that support our identifications are published in:<br>
<br>
<p><span lang="PT">Moreno-García, M.; Pimenta, C.; Gros Herrero,
M.</span><span lang="PT"> <b>(2005)</b> . </span><span
lang="EN-GB">Musical vultures in the Iberian Peninsula :
sounds through their wings. In (Grupe, G. & Peters, J.,
eds.) <span> </span><i>Feathers, Grit and Symbolism.
Birds and Humans in the Ancient Old and New Worlds. </i></span><span
lang="EN-US">Proceedings of the 5<sup>th </sup>Meeting of
the ICAZ Bird Working Group<i> </i>in</span><span
lang="EN-GB"> Munich (26.7 – 28.7.2004 ) . </span> <span>(Documenta
Archaeobiologiae<i> </i>3)</span> <span>, pp. 329-347.</span><i><span>
</span></i><span>R<span>ahden/Westf., Leidorf. </span></span></p>
<br>
Kind regards, <br>
Marta<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El 27/03/2013 8:15, François Poplin escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:51529CA3.6030303@mnhn.fr" type="cite">
<p><span>The next question is the size of beads, mainly their
diameter. </span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span>I have some trouble to work and search as I would like
these days ; among these difficulties, both librairies of
the Sorbonne and the Collège de France are removing... 3
hours lost/wasted. I went to the Institut du Monde arabe in
order to find some spacers for you. Maybe you can reach <i>Traditional
Jewelry of India</i>, Thames and Hudson ed., several
editions. Two very fine examples from Nagaland p. 66-67, one
with 8 holes, another with 8 and 11. </span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span>What I want to stress is that the width of spacers is
very commonly the same as the diameter of beads ; easy to
understand : it would be unsuitable to have them on the skin
protruding as rails of railway : it must be as in a level
crossing (U. S. grade crossing). </span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span>Then, what is the usual size/diameter of beads in the
concerned/involved cultures, is the question. </span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span>On p. 84 of the joint pdf, kindly sent by Simon Davis,
you have a an example of spacer made of vulture ulna (why
not bearded <i>Gypaetus barbatus</i>, as very usual for
pastoral flutes in recent Greece ?). You could imagine that
the beads themselves were made out of the same kind on bone
- the same diameter, I mean - but there is not enough bones
for that in the skeleton. </span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span>The largest side of bone wear the carving, the opposite
was hidden, laying on the skin/body or things like that ;
there is a rather strong tendancy in islamic/arabic
tradition to/for "osteoglyphy"/"osteography" (writing,
carving of bones, I don't enter the details). </span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span>The piece is broken both on a hole and one of the
semi-annular groves (not very young people may remember the
medicinal ampoules of glass and the little saw to open
them...). You may imagine with few risks that it went
further at least for another hole (half + one). There is an
idea of symmetry, reasonnably moderated by the lesser
development/witdth at this end. </span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span>That's all what a can do for today. </span></p>
<br>
<br>
-------- Message original --------
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" valign="BASELINE">Sujet: </th>
<td>Re: tiré à part</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" valign="BASELINE">Date : </th>
<td>Fri, 8 Mar 2013 08:07:34 +0000</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" valign="BASELINE">De : </th>
<td>Simon Davis <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:simonjmdavis@gmail.com"><simonjmdavis@gmail.com></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" valign="BASELINE">Pour : </th>
<td>François Poplin <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:poplin@mnhn.fr"><poplin@mnhn.fr></a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
peut-etre c'est ça?
<div>davis<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<div>
<blockquote> François POPLIN<br>
<br>
Directeur honoraire de l’UMR 7209 Archéozoologie,
Archébotanique : sociétés, pratiques et environnements<br>
<br>
Responsable du Séminaire d'Anthropozoologie<br>
<br>
Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle<br>
CP 56<br>
Ancien Laboratoire d’Anatomie comparée<br>
55, rue de Buffon<br>
75005 Paris<br>
01 40 79 33 11<br>
fax ------ 33 14<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://francoispoplin.blogspot.com">francoispoplin.blogspot.com</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
Simon JM Davis, <br>
Zooarqueologia, Laboratório de Arqueociências,<br>
IGESPAR,<br>
Rua da Bica do Marquês, 2 <br>
1300-087 Lisbon (Portugal) <br>
<br>
There was nothing, then dinosaurs, then<br>
There were mammals, and finally men,<br>
Who ruled for a while<br>
In belligerent style,<br>
And then there was nothing again <br>
(Gerard Benson)<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<br>
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</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<pre>--
Dra. Marta Moreno-García
G.I. Arqueobiología.
Instituto de Historia
Centro de Ciencias Humanas y Sociales (CCHS). CSIC
Albasanz 26-28. 28037 Madrid. Spain
Tel: +34 91 6022384
e-mail: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:marta.moreno@cchs.csic.es">marta.moreno@cchs.csic.es</a>
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</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
François POPLIN
Directeur honoraire de l’UMR 7209 Archéozoologie, Archébotanique : sociétés, pratiques et environnements
Responsable du Séminaire d'Anthropozoologie
Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle
CP 56
Ancien Laboratoire d’Anatomie comparée
55, rue de Buffon
75005 Paris
01 40 79 33 11
fax ------ 33 14
francoispoplin.blogspot.com
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