[Bonetools] excuse me

[François POPLIN]

I made a mistake : don't read 
Its also more difficult to cut "fresh" wood than dry with an axe. 

but : 
Its also less difficult to cut "fresh" wood than dry with an axe. 



De: "François POPLIN" <francois.poplin at mnhn.fr> 
À: "Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the study of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn." <bonetools at listserv.niif.hu> 
Cc: "Janet L Griffitts, griffitt" <griffitt at arizona.edu> 
Envoyé: Dimanche 31 Mai 2020 11:02:55 
Objet: Re: [Bonetools] [EXT]Re: question about manufacturing time 

Dear Janet Griffitts, 

you are right, it's well known, I was waiting that some english writter explains you the reason why, in order to avoid to have to do it, but it does not come. I start in french. 

Les matières dures d'origine animale comme l'os (dont les bois de cervidés) sont un assemblage de calcaire et de collagène. Ce mot "collagène" signifie "qui donne de la colle", "qui produit/génère de la colle". On peut l'extraire des os (osséine) en les faisant bouillir concassés, mais il est plus efficace de faire bouillir de la peau (le derme), des boyaux, etc. La colle est donc fluide au départ, et, en perdant son eau (déshydratant), elle durcit. 

greek, both ancient and modern κóλλα (kolla), latine vulg. colla, italian colla, spanish cola, french colle, = a long tradition 
Its also more difficult to cut "fresh" wood than dry with an axe. 

Il y a une logique traditionnelle de l'épieu (boar-spear) en bois à pointe durcie par le feu qui a automatiquement son complément dans la mollesse apportée par l'eau, l'imbibition à l'eau. 

En desséchant dans la matière, les fibres de collagène mettent celle-ci sous tension, ce qui est particulièrement sensible dans les canines de suidés et d'hippopotame. 

L'os le plus dur/difficile à travailler que j'ai rencontré est celui du rostre de l'espadon (sword fish, Xiphias gladius ), voir mes numéros 27, 92, 7'. J'ai vu récemment un petit bas-relief antique fait dans cette matière ; c'est donc un nouvel "ivoire", après celui de rhinocéros indien (278) et celui de dugong (58'). Il est bon de rappeler que les ivoires marins sont d'animaux de mer, et non pas transportés par bateau (= ultra-marins) ; sinon, par avion : ivoire aérien ? 


De: "Naomi Martisius" <nlmartisius at ucdavis.edu> 
À: "Griffitts, Janet L - (griffitt)" <griffitt at arizona.edu> 
Cc: "Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the study of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn." <bonetools at listserv.niif.hu> 
Envoyé: Samedi 30 Mai 2020 19:35:17 
Objet: Re: [Bonetools] [EXT]Re: question about manufacturing time 

Yes, thank you all. This has given me much to consider! 

On Sat, May 30, 2020 at 10:28 AM Griffitts, Janet L - (griffitt) < [ mailto:griffitt at arizona.edu | griffitt at arizona.edu ] > wrote: 




Hello 

Another complicating factor into the consideration regarding manufacturing time is the freshness or dryness of the bone. I found that there was a huge difference in time that it takes to cut fresh bone and dry bone. When I was making tools for usewear experiments I would cut all of the fresh bone into blanks right away and then store the blanks until needed because there wasn't as big a difference in grinding fresh and dry bone, but that after only a couple of weeks the bison bones I was working with would become very hard to cut using chert and quartzite tools (not impossible, but it would take much longer and would dull the chert tools faster). This was in Colorado, not a very humid environment. I don't know how long it would take for the bones to dry out in a more humid or colder context. 

This is an interesting conversation! Thanks for starting it! 

Janet 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Jan Griffitts, Ph.D. 
Visiting Scholar 
Dept. of Anthropology, 
Tucson,Arizona 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 


From: Bonetools < [ mailto:bonetools-bounces at listserv.niif.hu | bonetools-bounces at listserv.niif.hu ] > on behalf of Hans Christian Küchelmann < [ mailto:info at knochenarbeit.de | info at knochenarbeit.de ] > 
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 9:42 AM 
To: BONETOOLS < [ mailto:bonetools at listserv.niif.hu | bonetools at listserv.niif.hu ] >; [ mailto:nlmartisius at ucdavis.edu | nlmartisius at ucdavis.edu ] < [ mailto:nlmartisius at ucdavis.edu | nlmartisius at ucdavis.edu ] > 
Subject: [EXT]Re: [Bonetools] question about manufacturing time 
External Email 

Dear Naomi, 

there is an experiment done by Amy Margaris and colleagues in Canada on manufacturing Alutiq antler projectile tips, which is referenced on the experiments page of the Worked Bone Research Group (WBRG) website at [ https://www.wbrg.net/experiments/ | https://www.wbrg.net/experiments/ ] (sroll down until November 2010). There is also a little movie about the experiment at [ https://vimeo.com/67681232 | https://vimeo.com/67681232 ] . 

The WBRG reference database contains further useful references ( [ https://www.wbrg.net/references | https://www.wbrg.net/references ] ). You can use the keyword search to search for appropriate references. 

Some papers that come to my mind randomly are: 

# Margaris, Amy Vlassia (2006): Alutiiq Enginieering: the Mechanics and Design of skeletal Technologies in Alaska's Kodiak Archipelago, PhD-thesis University of Arizona, Tucson 

# Pétillon, Jean-Marc / Bignon, Olivier / Bodu, Pierre / Cattellain, Pierre / Debout, Grégory / Langlais, Mathieu / Laroulandie, Véronique / Plisson, Hugues / Valentin, Boris (2011): Hard core and cutting edge: experimental manufacture and use of Magdalenian composite projectile tips. – Journal of Archaeological Science 38, 1266-1283 

# Pétillon, Jean-Marc (2006): Des Magdaleniens en Armes – Technologie des Armatures de Projectile en Bois de Cervide du Magdalenien Superior de la Grotte d Isturitz (Pyrenenees-Atlantiques), Artefacts 10, Treignes 

# Schibler, Jörg (2001): Experimental Production of Neolithic Bone and Antler Tools. in: Choyke, Alice M. & Bartosiewicz, Laszlo (eds.): Crafting Bone: Skeletal Technologies through Time and Space – Proceedings of the 2nd meeting of the (ICAZ) Worked Bone Research Group Budapest, 31 August – 5 September 1999, British Archaeological Reports International Series 937, 49-60, Oxford 

# Stodiek, Ulrich (1991): Jungpaläolithische Speerschleudern und Speere – ein Rekonstruktionsversuch, Experimentelle Archäologie in Deutschland. – Archäologische Mitteilungen aus Nordwestdeutschland Beiheft 4, 287-297 

# Stodiek, Ulrich & Paulsen, Harm (1996): "Mit dem Pfeil, dem Bogen…" – Technik der steinzeitlichen Jagd, Archäologische Mitteilungen aus Nordwestdeutschland Beiheft 16, Oldenburg 

# Stodiek, Ulrich (2000): Preliminary Results of an Experimental Investigation of Magdalenian Antler Points. – Anthropologie et Préhistoire 111, 70-78 

# Stone, Elisabeth Ann (2011): Through the Eye of the Needle: Investigations of Ethnographic, Experimental, and Archaeological Bone Tool Use Wear from Perishable Technologies, PhD-thesis University of New Mexico, Albuquerque 

Best wishes. 

Christian 
-- 
Knochenarbeit 

Hans Christian Küchelmann 

Speicherhof 4, D-28217 Bremen, Germany 
tel: +49 - 421 - 61 99 177 
mail: [ mailto:info at knochenarbeit.de | info at knochenarbeit.de ] 
web: [ http://www.knochenarbeit.de/ | http://www.knochenarbeit.de ] 



> Am 28.05.2020 um 00:17 schrieb Naomi Martisius < [ mailto:nlmartisius at ucdavis.edu | nlmartisius at ucdavis.edu ] >: 
> 
> Dear all, 
> 
> Does anyone know of any research out there discussing how long it might take to manufacture bone or antler points? 
> 
> Thanks! 
> 
> Best, 
> Naomi 
> 
> -- 
> Naomi L. Martisius, PhD 
> Associate Researcher, Department of Anthropology, 
> University of California, Davis 
> Davis, CA 95616 
> email: [ mailto:nlmartisius at ucdavis.edu | nlmartisius at ucdavis.edu ] 
> 
> Post-Doctoral Researcher, Department of Human Evolution, 
> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology 
> _______________________________________________ 
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-- 
Naomi L. Martisius, PhD 
Associate Researcher, Department of Anthropology, 
University of California, Davis 
Davis, CA 95616 
email: [ mailto:nlmartisius at ucdavis.edu | nlmartisius at ucdavis.edu ] 

Post-Doctoral Researcher, Department of Human Evolution, 
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology 

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-- 
François POPLIN 

Directeur honoraire de l’UMR 7209 Archéozoologie, Archébotanique : sociétés, pratiques et environnements 

Responsable du Séminaire d'Anthropozoologie 

Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle 
CP 56 
Ancien Laboratoire d’Anatomie comparée 
55, rue de Buffon 
75005 Paris 
01 40 79 33 11 
fax ------ 33 14 

francoispoplin.blogspot.com 


_______________________________________________ 
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-- 
François POPLIN 

Directeur honoraire de l’UMR 7209 Archéozoologie, Archébotanique : sociétés, pratiques et environnements 

Responsable du Séminaire d'Anthropozoologie 

Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle 
CP 56 
Ancien Laboratoire d’Anatomie comparée 
55, rue de Buffon 
75005 Paris 
01 40 79 33 11 
fax ------ 33 14 

francoispoplin.blogspot.com 
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