[Bonetools] Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : protohistoric object
MARQUEBIELLE Benjamin
benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
Tue Aug 2 12:27:39 CEST 2011
Thanks a lot Selena !
The use of these small bones looks more frequent than I thought, I did not think
so many people could be interested by it! It is a pleasant surprise! You are
right about the Round Table (but not immediately, ok ? ;-)
Thank you for your photos. I don't know if you also got back Jacqueline Meier's
documents, the objects you study seem very close!
Nevertheless, they present some differences with my items. First of all, the
Gallic objects are phalanges and not astragals and polish is never very intense
(on the contrary, striations are frequent, see attached photo). About your
objects, I agree with you, the natural surface of the bone is smoothed, polish
is intense and evokes work of a soft material (like skin ?). According to
Jacqueline, indeed, result of a clay work is polish moderate to heavy and
important striations.
I shall inform you about result of our experiments !
Best
Benjamin
Marquebielle Benjamin
doctorant laboratoire TRACES - UMR 5608
5, rue du pont Guilheméry
31000 Toulouse
tel : 06 71 33 61 52
e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
________________________________
De : Selena Vitezovic <selenavitezovic at gmail.com>
À : "Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the study of
object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn." <bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>
Envoyé le : Mar 2 août 2011, 0h 11min 22s
Objet : Re: [Bonetools] Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : protohistoric object
Hello everyone,
I think Benjamin should organize a round table dedicated to the use of astragals
in prehistoric Europe, as it seems they occur everywhere with endless variety in
modes of use.
Here is my contribution to the topic, astragals from two sites in Serbia. Those
labeled dvs are from Divostin, central Serbia, Vinča culture (Late Neolithic /
Early Aeneolithic) and those labeled bb are from Bubanj, eastern Serbia, Bubanj
culture (Aeneolithic).
My hypothesis is that both types were used on soft, organic materials, as polish
is very intense. I would expect more regular, deeper lines and incisions if they
have been used on pottery. Oh, yes, those from Divostin are sheep astragals, and
from Bubanj one is from red deer, the other from pig.
Otherwise, Benjamin, I am really looking forward to see results of your
experiments, hope they will be sucessful.
best regards, selena
On 27 July 2011 12:11, MARQUEBIELLE Benjamin <benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr>
wrote:
Cher monsieur Poplin.
>Je n'ai pas le détail du travail du bronze sur le site, mais s'il est une
>activité artisanale bien représentée, c'est bien la métallurgie. Voila pourquoi
>nous tenons tant à expérimenter le travail de ce matériau. Nous serions bien sur
>très intéressé par vos écrits ! J'ai transmis votre mail à Mlle Nadia Cavanhié,
>archéozoologue en charge de l'étude de ce matériel, qui saura mieux que moi
>répondre à vos questions.
>Bien à vous
>
>Dear M. Poplin
>I have no precise idea about the bronze working on the site, but metal industry
>is a very frequent crafting activity. That's why we're wanting so much
>experiment the work of this material with phalanges. We are so very interested
>about your papers!
>
>I passed on your e-mail to Miss Nadia Cavanhié, zooarchaeologist who studying
>this material. She will know better that I to answer your questions.
>
>Best regards
>
>Marquebielle Benjamin
>PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
>5, rue du pont Guilheméry
>31000 Toulouse
>tel : 06 71 33 61 52
>e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
>De : François Poplin <poplin at mnhn.fr>
>
>À : "Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for the study of
>object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn." <bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>
>Envoyé le : Mer 27 juillet 2011, 11h 04min 52s
>Objet : Re: [Bonetools] Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : protohistoric object
>
>
>Cher Monsieur,
>
>je vois que cela commence à parler de métal. Je voulais justement vous
>demander ce que vous avez comme objets de bronze ; avez-vous des bandeaux
>fins, par exemple ? des lames ? Et avez-vous des signes manifestes du
>travail du bronze (scories, etc.) ?
>
>D'autre part combien avez-vous de ces phalanges ? et des deux sortes,
>c'est-à-dire combien de la "gauche" et combien de la "droite" du plan de
>symétrie du pied ? et en avez-vous trouvé à l'état groupé ?
>
>J'ai écrit sur le fourbissages des métaux - je peux vous envoyer cela par la
>poste ; à quelle adresse ?
>
>Bien à vous.
>
>
>
>Le 27/07/2011 10:46, MARQUEBIELLE Benjamin a écrit :
>Thank you Jackie, very interesting experiments ! I'll send you the
>results of our metal experiment. I agree with you about the hight
>possibilities of using these kind of pieces like tool and not only like
>gaming pieces !
>>About the Ethan hypothesis (smoothing and burnishing plaster on
>>walls), why not, but the phalanges are small (some come from young
>>animals) and some of them present a very small active part... Maybe
>>a very precise work ? And about grinding small amounts of delicate
>>materials like spices, pigments or medicines, there isn't a lot of
>>indications in favour of these hypothesis. There's no traces (micro
>>or macroscopic) of pigments (and the conservation of some objetcs is
>>quite good) and all the objects present same oblique striations, all
>>in the same direction.
>>
>>Thanks for all these ideas and hypothesis !
>>
>> Marquebielle Benjamin
>>PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
>>5, rue du pont Guilheméry
>>31000 Toulouse
>>tel : 06 71 33 61 52
>>e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
________________________________
De : Etan Ayalon <etana at eretzmuseum.org.il>
>>À : "Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for
>>thestudy of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and horn."
>><bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>
>>Envoyé le : Dim 24 juillet 2011, 8h 06min 43s
>>Objet : Re: [Bonetools] Re : Re : Re : Re : protohistoric object
>>
>>
>>Dear all,
>>Another possibility of using straight sided phalanges on wet
>>material without bothering on the problem of the rounded shape
>>of pottery vessels: smoothing and burnishing plaster on
>>walls! This was done on walls of dwelling houses as well as of
>>installations (i.e., connected with liquids), on lime-white
>>plaster as well as on muddy-brown plaster, etc. We are all
>>aware of the beautiful photos from Africa showing women
>>coating their houses with mud and colors and burnishing them.
>>
>>And how about grinding small amounts of delicate materials
>>like spices, pigments, medicines etc.?
>>Etan Ayalon
>>
>>
________________________________
From: bonetools-bounces at listserv.niif.hu
[mailto:bonetools-bounces at listserv.niif.hu] On Behalf Of
MARQUEBIELLE Benjamin
>>Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2011 3:03 PM
>>To: Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group for
>>the study ofobject and waste of bone,antler. ivory and horn.
>>Subject: [Bonetools] Re : Re : Re : Re : protohistoric object
>>
>>
>>Hello Jackie, hello Alice
>>
>>Wonderful ! Thank you for the contact, Alice, and, yes, I would
>>like some photos of phalanges from Szazhalombatta please, to
>>compare with my objects. Jackie, this is very interesting and,
>>please, I would like also a copy of your article and poster, of
>>course.
>>
>>We tought these objects could be ceramic smoothers because of the
>>oblique striations of the straight face, and the lack of
>>characteristic traces of hide or leather working (or other smooth
>>raw material), with very bright polish. The result of alternative
>>smooth of inside and outside pots is interesting ! We thought also
>>to experiment the work of metal with a smith and use these objects
>>like smoothers or during quenching and tempering phase of blade
>>production. I'll could share the results of this experiment, as
>>Eva said in a previous message.
>>Thank you for all these informations !
>>
>>All the best
>>
>> Marquebielle Benjamin
>>PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
>>5, rue du pont Guilheméry
>>31000 Toulouse
>>tel : 06 71 33 61 52
>>e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
________________________________
De : jacqueline meier <jacqueline.s.meier at gmail.com>
>>À : Alice Choyke <h13017cho at iif.hu>
>>Cc : "Mailing list for archaeologists of the research group
>>for the study of object and waste of bone, antler. ivory and
>>horn." <bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>
>>Envoyé le : Ven 22 juillet 2011, 21h 37min 40s
>>Objet : Re: [Bonetools] Re : Re : Re : protohistoric object
>>
>>
>>Hello,
>>
>>
>>Alice Choyke forwarded me this thread. At the last ICAZ
>>meeting, I presented a poster on an experiment that
>>investigated some astragali artifacts that I studied for
>>my Master's thesis, thanks to Alice. I tried using
>>astragali to work wet and dry clay and hide and compared
>>the resulting macro and microwear to wear on flattened
>>astragali artifacts from the
>>Middle Bronze Age sites of Zagyvapálfalva-Homokbanya
>>and Kisterenye-Hársas in Hungary. If my results
>>would be of interest to anyone, please email me and
>>I will send you a copy of the poster and my
>>submitted article for the ICAZ volume.
>>
>>
>>In my study, the lack of contextual information was
>>very limiting, but I made several interesting
>>conclusions about the potential of using unmodified
>>astragali as tools. First, it is very easy to use goat
>>astragali to hand-burnish pottery and they are very
>>effective burnishers. Second, the outermost ridges of
>>the medial and lateral bone sides were ground down to
>>a flat surface after 120 minutes of use. Lastly,
>>microwear developed that was very similar to that
>>which was present on the bone artifacts: oblique
>>striations and some micropitting developed. I held the
>>astragali as was indicated by the handling polish on
>>the artifacts and made clay that was comparable to the
>>formula and particle size as clay from the site, thus
>>I am confident in concluding that these flattened
>>astragali were potentially used for burnishing
>>leather-hard ceramic. Again, context limits this
>>conclusion, but the wear was assessed with backscatter
>>imaging and looks very similar.
>>
>>
>>
>>Several key points may be relevant to this thread. One
>>is that astragali do not have to be pre-flattened to
>>burnish ceramic. Any sharp or raised areas are quickly
>>removed by the gritty clay. Second, I used astragali
>>to smooth the inside and outside of round pots and the
>>astragali were flattened straight. This was not
>>intentionally done, in fact I did not notice it until
>>compared the profiles of these astragali with those
>>used to experimentally work hide.
>>
>>
>>Again, I will send this article and poster to anyone
>>who requests a copy. I look forward to reading about
>>similar experiments with astragali and phalanges.
>>
>>
>>All the best,
>>Jackie Meier
>>jacqueline.meier at uconn.edu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 9:40 PM, Alice Choyke
>><h13017cho at iif.hu> wrote:
>>
>>If you wish I can also send you plentiful photos of
>>phalanges from Szazhalombatta as well. there are
>>many of these objects from the MBA. You should also
>>contact Jacquie Meier (jacqueline.s.meier at gmail.com)
>>who did some experiments with these objects.
>>>
>>>Best,
>>>Alice
>>>
>>>
>>>On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 10:35 AM, MARQUEBIELLE
>>>Benjamin <benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr> wrote:
>>>
>>>Hello Selena, hello Alice
>>>>
>>>>Marianne Christensen send to me your article,
>>>>Alice, about Jászdózsa–Kápolnahalom and there
>>>>is photo with worked phalanges. We'll
>>>>begin experiments in August, with potter and
>>>>smith, maybe they'll bring some indications...
>>>>One of the problem of my object is the context
>>>>is unclear, most of them was found in
>>>>wells full of rubbish.
>>>>Thanks for the abstract reference, Selena,
>>>>I'll contact the author !
>>>>
>>>>Best
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Marquebielle Benjamin
>>>>PhD student TRACES laboratory - UMR 5608
>>>>5, rue du pont Guilheméry
>>>>31000 Toulouse
>>>>tel : 06 71 33 61 52
>>>>e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
________________________________
De : Alice Choyke
<h13017cho at iif.hu>
>>>>À : "Mailing list
>>>>for archaeologists of the research group
>>>>for the study of object and waste of
>>>>bone, antler. ivory and horn."
>>>><bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>
>>>>Envoyé le : Ven 22
>>>>juillet 2011, 10h 17min 18s
>>>>Objet : Re: [Bonetools] Re : Re :
>>>>protohistoric object
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Unless the clay surfaces being
>>>>smoothed are straight such as the wall
>>>>of an oven: I have been struggling
>>>>with the exact same problem for
>>>>astragalii and phalanges of all kinds,
>>>>especially from the Middle Bronze Age
>>>>of Hungary and am not much smarter
>>>>than I began... Multiple hypotheses
>>>>need to be tried out again and and
>>>>again because sadly there will not be
>>>>one right answer to this problem. It
>>>>is definitely context driven.
>>>>
>>>>Alice
>>>>
>>>>De : Selena
>>>>Vitezovic <selenavitezovic at gmail.com>
>>>>À : "Mailing list
>>>>for archaeologists of the research
>>>>group for the study of object and
>>>>waste of bone, antler. ivory and
>>>>horn." <bonetools at listserv.niif.hu>
>>>>Envoyé le : Sam 2
>>>>juillet 2011, 19h 10min 35s
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Objet : Re: [Bonetools] Re :
>>>>protohistoric object
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Hello everyone,
>>>>Hello, Benjamin,
>>>>
>>>>Perhaps a little bit out of time and
>>>>place - but last year at ICAZ
>>>>conference I saw a poster on astragals
>>>>from Bronze age Hungary with
>>>>similar usewear pattern, used probably
>>>>for clay working.
>>>>
>>>>This is the link for the abstract,
>>>>perhaps photos may be found or asked
>>>>from author.
>>>>
>>>>http://alexandriaarchive.org/bonecommons/items/show/1383
>>>>
>>>>And I agree with Marloes, they must
>>>>have been flattened before use. Some
>>>>other used astragals, from Balkan
>>>>Neolithic and Chalcolithic, seemed to
>>>>have been flattened before use
>>>>(probably with sandstone) - although
>>>>they were most likely used on soft,
>>>>organic materials, since they have
>>>>intense polish.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>best, selena
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 9:51
>>>>AM, MARQUEBIELLE Benjamin <ivrel001 at yahoo.fr> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Hello Marloes, sorry for the
>>>>delay, I traveled.
>>>>>Good remark... Phalanges
>>>>>internal side are flat but not
>>>>>so flat. I agree with you :
>>>>>the (possible) worked surface
>>>>>must be straight and a pottery
>>>>>generaly isn't.
>>>>>
>>>>>Best
>>>>>Benjamin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Marquebielle
Benjamin
>>>>>PhD student TRACES
>>>>>laboratory - UMR 5608
>>>>>5, rue du pont
>Guilheméry
>>>>>31000 Toulouse
>>>>>tel : 06 71 33 61 52
>>>>>e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
________________________________
De : Marloes Rijkelijkhuizen <marloesrijkelijkhuizen at hotmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>À :
>>>>>bonetools at listserv.niif.hu
>>>>>Envoyé le : Ven 1
>>>>>juillet 2011, 21h 02min
>>>>>49s
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Objet : Re:
>>>>>[Bonetools] Re :
>>>>>protohistoric object
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi Benjamin
>>>>>
>>>>>I couldn't see if it
>>>>>was flattened
>>>>>(before use).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>If used, it should be
>>>>>used for/on
>>>>>something with a flat
>>>>>surface, the surface
>>>>>is completely
>>>>>flat. (compare the
>>>>>medieval skates, these
>>>>>were used on ice and
>>>>>have a flat surface,
>>>>>but were sometimes
>>>>>flattened before use).
>>>>>If used for pottery
>>>>>the surface
>>>>>wouldn't be straight.
>>>>>
>>>>>Best, Marloes
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
________________________________
Date: Fri, 1 Jul
2011 12:35:47 +0100
>>>>>From: benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>>>>>To: bonetools at listserv.niif.hu
>>>>>Subject: [Bonetools]
>>>>>Re :
>>>>>protohistoric object
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>No, it isn't.
>>>>>I send photo of
>>>>>another object where
>>>>>you can see more
>>>>>precisely the traces.
>>>>>Use wear area is the
>>>>>result of the
>>>>>use/exploitation of
>>>>>the flatest face of
>>>>>the phalanx, maybe
>>>>>with a kind of
>>>>>abrasion technique...
>>>>>The mophologic
>>>>>modification of the
>>>>>bone could be
>>>>>various but never very
>>>>>important.
>>>>>
>>>>>Non, il ne s'agit pas
>>>>>de sciage.
>>>>>
>>>>>Je joins une photo
>>>>>d'un autre objet
>>>>>sur laquelle on voit
>>>>>plus précisément
>>>>>les stigmates. La zone
>>>>>d'usure est le
>>>>>résultat de
>>>>>l'utilisation ou de
>>>>>l'exploitation de la
>>>>>face la plus plate de
>>>>>la phalange, peut être
>>>>>en utilisant une
>>>>>technique
>>>>>d'abrasion... Ce degré
>>>>>d'usure peut varier
>>>>>mais il n'est jamais
>>>>>très important.
>>>>>
>>>>> Marquebielle
>>>>Benjamin
>>>>>PhD student TRACES
>>>>>laboratory - UMR 5608
>>>>>5, rue du pont
>>>>>Guilheméry
>>>>>31000 Toulouse
>>>>>tel : 06 71 33 61
>>52
>>>>>e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
________________________________
De : François
Poplin <poplin at mnhn.fr>
>>>>>À :
>>>>>bonetools at listserv.niif.hu
>>>>>Envoyé le : Ven 1
>>>>>juillet 2011, 12h
>>>>>20min 16s
>>>>>Objet : Re:
>>>>>[Bonetools]
>>>>>protohistoric object
>>>>>
>>>>>Est-il sûr qu'il ne
>>>>>s'agit pas d'un sciage
>>>>>?
>>>>>
>>>>>Would not be sawing
>>>>>traces ?
>>>>>
>>>>>Le 01/07/2011 11:00,
>>>>>MARQUEBIELLE Benjamin
>>>>>a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>>Hello !
>>>>>>Does anybody have an
>>>>>>idea about the type
>>>>>>or function of this
>>>>>>object ? It's an young
>>>>>>pig phalanx,
>>>>>>with use wear traces
>>>>>>on the internal
>>>>>>face, covered by
>>>>>>oblique striations. It
>>>>>>comes from large
>>>>>>protohistoric site
>>>>>>(possible marketplace)
>>>>>>of Toulouse, in the
>>>>>>south of France
>>>>>>(II-I° century BC).
>>>>>>About 20 objects was
>>>>>>found, a majority made
>>>>>>of pig phalanxes
>>>>>>(young or not) and
>>>>>>only two made of bovid
>>>>>>pahlanxes. Use wear is
>>>>>>always located on the
>>>>>>same face, with
>>>>>>different use degree
>>>>>>and some objetcs
>>>>>>are perforated on the
>>>>>>proximal face. We
>>>>>>thought about a kind
>>>>>>of smoother (in
>>>>>>relation with potery ?
>>>>>>metal ?) but objects
>>>>>>are realy small and
>>>>>>found in various
>>>>>>contexts (more often
>>>>>>in wells full of rubbish).
>>>>>>Thanks a lot and best
>>>>>>regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marquebielle
>>>>>Benjamin
>>>>>>PhD student TRACES
>>>>>>laboratory - UMR 5608
>>>>>>5, rue du pont
>>>>>>Guilheméry
>>>>>>31000 Toulouse
>>>>>>tel : 06 71 33 61
>>>52
>>>>>>e-mail : benjamin.marquebielle at yahoo.fr
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________ Bonetools mailing list
>>>>>>Bonetools at listserv.niif.hu https://listserv.niif.hu/mailman/listinfo/bonetools
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-- François POPLIN Directeur honoraire de l’UMR 7209 Archéozoologie,
>>>>Archébotanique : sociétés, pratiques et environnements Responsable du Séminaire
>>>>d'Anthropozoologie Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle CP 56 Ancien
>>>>Laboratoire d’Anatomie comparée 55, rue de Buffon 75005 Paris 01 40 79 33 11 fax
>>>>------ 33 14 francoispoplin.blogspot.com
>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Bonetools mailing list
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>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Bonetools mailing list
>>>>>Bonetools at listserv.niif.hu
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Bonetools mailing list
>>>>Bonetools at listserv.niif.hu
>>>>https://listserv.niif.hu/mailman/listinfo/bonetools
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>Jacqueline S. Meier, MSc
>>Department of Anthropology
>>Unit 2176, 354 Mansfield Road
>>University of Connecticut
>>Storrs, CT 06269
>>
>>
>>______________________________________________________________________
>>This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security
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>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________ Bonetools mailing list
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>>
-- François POPLIN Directeur honoraire de l’UMR 7209 Archéozoologie,
Archébotanique : sociétés, pratiques et environnements Responsable du Séminaire
d'Anthropozoologie Muséum national d'Histoire naturelle CP 56 Ancien
Laboratoire d’Anatomie comparée 55, rue de Buffon 75005 Paris 01 40 79 33 11 fax
------ 33 14 francoispoplin.blogspot.com
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